Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

[keeney123]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

He is the pump control all you would need is a relay switch to connect the AC voltage. For some reason when I uploaded schematic it rotated.

[sam_sam_sam]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

I found something that looks promising here. I haven't looked too deep into it and the only way to learn something is to actually do it I might ask the guys in supply to get one of these to try out for R&D purposes...

This might be over kill for what you are trying to do

https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...28260754c7.pdf

Do you have any experience with “ Modules” if not I would highly recommend that you learn about this before you try to implement this type of function if you have no experience with it hard to troubleshoot this type of protocol because where I use to work they had a machine that that had this system which unfortunately I do not have very much experience with this type of setup but still was able to fix most issues but if was “Modules” related issues then I would have to call tech support and have them login to our machine just want you to be aware of this

[Dannyx]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

the pump and 2 valves is asking for trouble, if a valve fails you can run the pump against the valve till it burns up

Some sort of pressure switch or flow meter could prevent that, though at the moment that's of no concern to me.

[stj]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

the pump and 2 valves is asking for trouble, if a valve fails you can run the pump against the valve till it burns up

[Dannyx]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

I found something that looks promising here. I haven't looked too deep into it and the only way to learn something is to actually do it I might ask the guys in supply to get one of these to try out for R&D purposes...

[Dannyx]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

I was thinking you could break it down from the other direction - the web server, WiFi etc HMI and see what controllers can do that, first.

This is precisely why I launched this thread - to hear what others have used and what they may suggest hardware-wise for a small project like this. It's not a powerhouse at the end of the day.

I started looking for something that meets as many of my requirements as possible, that's both decent quality and relatively affordable. The first thing I decided to leave out in order to get more results is the GSM/4G feature. I was planning to have this thing operate via a SIM card for me and the client's convenience, but there don't seem to be that many options that do this out of the box - they're either "primitive" gate opener kind-of devices, or they're proper PLCs but require an add-on module to implement GSM, which is not only costly but probably hard to get going for a novice. The few PLCs that seem to do GSM out of the box are way overkill - too many I/Os and too expensive, wired Ethernet it acceptable at this point. I can always run that through a 4G modem to get it on the air.

[keeney123]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

Correct, which is why I cannot be bothered to cobble up something from scratch again. We're going OTS this time.

The critical part for you is going to be the matting of systems. You are going to need to know the full operation on the end of one system and the beginning operation of the other system. The sequential function of the systems must be fully understood, and the voltage and current requirements of the mated systems will have to match up. This will require figuring out these requirements.

[redwire]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

We would start with a site visit- collect drawings, wiring diagrams etc all existing documentation for the site. Take a lot of pictures, to get wiring, part numbers etc of the existing equipment.

You can't use a cheap chinese PLC because their software is decades behind and who wants CapXon reliability? What keeps killing you is the cheap low budget you have.
A custom solution using Arduino/RPi etc is a "one of" - nobody but you know how it works. Yes it was cheap (hardware) but still alot of work to build (hours programming).

I was thinking you could break it down from the other direction - the web server, WiFi etc HMI and see what controllers can do that, first.
Either that or split it up, a vanilla PLC with MODBUS over to a webserver. But it's more complicated to program two systems instead of one.

[Dannyx]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

Usually in a system that links integrated circuits with power circuits either a opto isolator is used or control relays are use. This is done to prevent damage to fragile low voltage IC circuits.

Correct, which is why I cannot be bothered to cobble up something from scratch again. We're going OTS this time.

[keeney123]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

Because people want to upgrade and automate the process

I'm afraid a Raspberry Pi would be too much work and too fragile of a product.

Usually in a system that links integrated circuits with power circuits either a opto isolator is used or control relays are use. This is done to prevent damage to fragile low voltage IC circuits.

[Dannyx]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

So, what you need to do is to go see the system. Take Clear photos of the present system and post them. Make drawings of what the photos do not show and post them. Then everyone will know what you are working with, and you will get more definitive replies to help you.

The drawings can be pencil and paper and does not need to be on paint program. After you make the pencil drawing at the site then bring in back to your home and make and black ink drawing. Then post the black ink drawing.

Also, know that when you design a system you will need to think of every perceivable way the system can fail and then prevent any damage when it fails.

Yes, it was mostly speculative. I was curious to hear how others would tackle such a job.

[keeney123]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

From what I understand, the setup is already in use, just not automated, so we're in charge of doing only that. I won't be altering any of the existing pipework. I have not seen it personally - my sole concern is the "brains" of this system

So, what you need to do is to go see the system. Take Clear photos of the present system and post them. Make drawings of what the photos do not show and post them. Then everyone will know what you are working with, and you will get more definitive replies to help you.

The drawings can be pencil and paper and does not need to be on paint program. After you make the pencil drawing at the site then bring in back to your home and make and black ink drawing. Then post the black ink drawing.

Also, know that when you design a system you will need to think of every perceivable way the system can fail and then prevent any damage when it fails.

[Dannyx]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

If this thing was running manually before, why the change to web control? A raspberry pi has 26 GPIO pins that are programmable. Also you can cluster them.

Because people want to upgrade and automate the process

I'm afraid a Raspberry Pi would be too much work and too fragile of a product.

[CapLeaker]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

If this thing was running manually before, why the change to web control? A raspberry pi has 26 GPIO pins that are programmable. Also you can cluster them.

[Dannyx]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

From what I understand, the setup is already in use, just not automated, so we're in charge of doing only that. I won't be altering any of the existing pipework. I have not seen it personally - my sole concern is the "brains" of this system

[stj]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

if the tanks are side-by-side then you dont need valves.
you couple the tanks with a pipe at the high-water line and when one is full it will transfer incoming water to the other tank until both are equal.
this is how the wing fuel tanks in some cars operate.
wire the level sensors in series to the pump so both tanks full = pump off.

[Dannyx]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

Let's review then:

For these projects, you start with a list of the I/O required, and the voltages/currents for the I/O. This is the "point list" or "tag list" as it can be called, put into an Excel spreadsheet.
This is to know what size controller is required. Small ones have say 8 DI's, 8DO's but are typically 24VDC I/O which can cause a hassle if you need to switch 240VAC contactors. Also the existing manual panel pushbuttons etc. likely need to be reused.

At the moment there's nothing there: it's all done manually, though you're right: some sort of local control panel will need to be implemented using a couple of buttons and a few indicator lights.

There should be no problem driving a 230V/400V contactor via a 24v relay, right ? (aside from maybe the EMI it produces when it cuts out).

At its bare minimum, I'd need 3 outputs (1 pump, 2 valves) and 2 inputs (two float switches). This is not only hard to find, but also counter-productive because it leaves no room for expansion later on. I'd go with a 4 or 8 I/O controller - say they add another tank and I need another float. Most controllers I found, like I said, either do too much or too little.....or they look rather generic, homebrew even, and don't inspire much confidence when it comes to quality and resilience over time the way a proper brand does. PLCs are expensive and require a lot of work to get going, especially since I haven't worked with them too much, much less so when it comes to programming some sort of web server that ACTUALLY interfaces with the I/O. If it weren't for the remote management aspect, I would've gone with a PLC I have lying around, that my company's willing to sell anyway - this one.

The project's not too big of a deal, so I shouldn't go too overboard in complexity and cost....the way I usually do

are both tanks side by side?

Yes, they are.

[keeney123]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

So, I was thinking a little more like this. Then take each block and break it down into components and software. The pressure cut-off switch should be on the input of the pump. One can restrict the output of the pump some but, the input has to run without restriction otherwise the pump will overheat and burn out.

[redwire]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

For these projects, you start with a list of the I/O required, and the voltages/currents for the I/O. This is the "point list" or "tag list" as it can be called, put into an Excel spreadsheet.
This is to know what size controller is required. Small ones have say 8 DI's, 8DO's but are typically 24VDC I/O which can cause a hassle if you need to switch 240VAC contactors. Also the existing manual panel pushbuttons etc. likely need to be reused.

[stj]

Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

are both tanks side by side?