testing RF remote (re-posting)

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

Regarding the U2 I only have a DMM unfortunadly, I probably wont buy one until later in the school, i'm just finishing the first semester.
does that change anything regarding the test?

Edit.
Is this test good enough for the triac?
http://www.sentex.ca/~mec1995/gadgets/scrtest.html
or do you want me to messure it while it's in the board and with power on it?
I saw so many explenations on how to test a triac, but I thought that was the best one.
you say all 4, dont you mean all 3? or should I get readings from the "cooling" backplate?

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

I just tested the triac with a bread board and a 9v battery, and used the same setup as here.
http://www.sentex.ca/~mec1995/gadgets/scrtest.html
the bulb can only be lit if the S2 is on
if S2 is off I can not light it.
I can only turn off the light with the S2
if S2 is on I can switch S1 on or off and the light will stay on, no matter what. (S1 is acting like a pulse switch, with out the off option)
If S2 is on I can use the on/off on S1 to switch the light on/off.

that would mean the Triac is working, right?

[Toasty]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

All you needed was the diode check function of the DMM to see if the triac(s) are shorted MT1 to MT2... i.e. - always on.

Congrats on putting that circuit together!

Triacs depend on AC current to switch off. The zero crossing point of the AC waveform causes the device to drop out and without any signal to hold it, it will turn off at that time. With an AC circuit, you vary the (slightly rectified {see: diac}) AC current to the gate and that varies the voltage passing thru the triac.

See: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/6.html

With a DC circuit, S2 open is the only way to switch it off (You are removing power).

.

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

All you needed was the diode check function of the DMM to see if the triac(s) are shorted MT1 to MT2... i.e. - always on

oh well
I checked triac 1 and 2, my guess they are broken.

Triac1
PH
600D
BT134
m0310 D6

Triac2
PH
600D
BT134
m0314 D5

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe...IPS/BT134.html (I belive it's the right one)
Triac 1&2 are the same. (I belive)
Triac1
MT1 (+)507
MT2 (+)0
G (-)

Triac2
MT1 (+)399
MT2 (+)0
G (-)

I tested them by having (-) probe on the gate and (+) probe on either MT1 or MT2, isint that the correct way?

Congrats on putting that circuit together!

thanks, thankfully it wasent a complex one
as you can see on the image.

[Toasty]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

No, just check for shorted MT1 to MT2.

Gate only works with VOM or try your circuit.

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

I guess I was wrong.
I checked with the DMM MT1 to MT2 and got no reading.
also they apeared ok in my circuit.

Google for triac testing. Test all 4. Can you report their numbers please?

HAH I missread that lol, any way i've tested all 4 now.

Triac3
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe...ICS/BTB04.html
was also working in my circuit.

so the U2 is the only one left?
I tried googling for "Negative-voltage regulator test" but only found testing on car and motorbikes regulators.
how should I test it? (yeah i'm little scared on testing things in live circuit)

[Toasty]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

Live is the only way.

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

I'm sorry toast, but could you please explain to me how to test the U2,
i've tried to search for it, but cant find any information on how to test it.
you gave me a description on how to test it using a VOM, but I only have a DMM.
also am I messuring DC or AC there? (i guess it's AC since the triacs were AC?)

so far i've checked all triacs and resistors and they all sem to be ok.

[Toasty]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

See Post 20 for measuring U2. Read the datasheet.

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

sorry but i'm still clueless, as you say

U2 is a -5v regulator. You should see that measuring from the Common leg to the Output leg. If you have a VOM and not a DMM, put the Red/Positive(+) lead on the Common leg and the Black/Negative(-) on the Output leg.

I tried to ask you if the measuring would be the same if I only have DMM, and I have no idea if this is AC or DC, I guessed that it's AC but I cant be sure.
and as of now, the only thing I can see and understand from the datasheet is where the pins are, i've never been tought how to read the datasheet's or how to messure all those electric components, that's why I went to school, and also the reason I came to this forum, to be tought.
This is just my first year in school and all we have been tought regarding electronics circuits is resistors paralell/serial calculations.
and also what makes this alittle more difficult is that english is not my native language

[Toasty]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

This is DC, hence the -5v = negative 5 volts.

With a DMM it will say -5v when you connect the Black (-) lead to Common and the Red (+) to Output. DMM's are forgiving in this instance as they rely on the operator to interpret the reading.

VOM / Analog meters can not -usually- measure a negative voltage unless you hook it up in reverse or it has a polarity switch provided to do that.

With a VOM / analog meter (i.e., moving needle) if you hook it up the same way as the DMM, it will drive the meter's needle against the zero (0) stop post and possibly cause damage to the meter. That's why you have to hook it up with the Red (+) to Common and the Black (-) to Output. It will read 5v but you have to remember it is -really- negative 5 volts.

Perhaps this could be taken to school and see if an instructor could guide you "hands-on" so to speak?

Toast

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

This is DC, hence the -5v = negative 5 volts.

thanks, so I guess that negative volts are always DC?

I just checked it and got a reading of -4.95

Perhaps this could be taken to school and see if an instructor could guide you "hands-on" so to speak?

yeah, I wish that I could do that, i've tried to ask them questions, but they arent to happy about that.


there is another TO-92 looking on the board.
wich reads
S9012
h 331
wich I beliveis this one
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datashee...ETC/S9012.html
i've taken 2 pictures wich will follow so you can see it.

what should be checked next?

[Toasty]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

At this point, without the use of a scope, I think we've hit a wall.

I don't understand what could have happened to make this stop working???
Everything we've checked looks reasonably correct.

You could -try- replacing the big IC on the Receiver, but that's not good practice and teaches you nothing. As I said before, it would be highly unlikely that the Transmitter IC was damaged, as the power supply (battery) is well below it's design voltage rating.

Are you certain that this is being hooked up correctly to the fan/light?
I know it can't be that complicated.
The only thing that works is the light, which is always on, correct?

Is your school a Technical School or College you are paying for?

Toast

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

yeah i'm pretty certain that it's hooked correctly as the fan has colored wires same as the reciever and labeled.

yeah the light is alway's on and no way of turning it off, and I checked the inside of the fan
and it's just wires leading to the clockwise/counterclockwise switch and some kinda capacitor I belive.

cant I messure the output of the reciever, just to make sure that it's giving electricity to the fan/light?
and how would that be done?
just switch to 20/200dc and mesure the voltage and then the amperes?

I dont know how to descripe my school correctly,
as it's kinda different then in the US, it's partially goverment driven college, but we have
to pay to enter it, but that's only like 70$ per semester.
and it's mostly industrial college.

[Toasty]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

Hook the Board Blue to Fan/Light Blue (neutral)

Hook the Board Brown to Fan Red (fan output to light input)

Leave the Board Red and Fan Brown disconnected. Tape them or put wire nuts on the ends to keep them safe from touching anything.

Try the fan control portion of the remote. Does the light work?

If yes, the fan is bad.
If no, the fan control section is bad and I would try replacing the big IC on the receiver board.

The Light triac, Triac4, tests good but it's being turned on and is connected to the IC (pin 7) through 2 ceramic disc caps to the Gate.

What is Triac4's number? Never got that.
What is the IC's number?

Use the Diode Check function to test Q1.
I would remove it to test.

It is a PNP transistor, so to test it, the center leg should be connected to the Black lead of the DMM.
Touch the other 2 legs (see datasheet) and:

Report Base to Emitter, Base to Collector

Then put Red lead to Base and report again: B-E, B-C

Then Red to Emitter and Black to Collector
Then Black to Emitter and Red to Collector


Toast

Toast

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

Hook the Board Blue to Fan/Light Blue (neutral)

Hook the Board Brown to Fan Red (fan output to light input)

Leave the Board Red and Fan Brown disconnected. Tape them or put wire nuts on the ends to keep them safe from touching anything.

Try the fan control portion of the remote. Does the light work?

nope the light is dead.

The Light triac, Triac4, tests good but it's being turned on and is connected to the IC (pin 7) through 2 ceramic disc caps to the Gate.

What is Triac4's number? Never got that.
What is the IC's number?

Triac4
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe...ICS/BTA12.html
it's BTA12 but under it says 500C
the IC is
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe.../MDT10P10.html


Tests on the Q1
B is (-)
B-E 852
B-C 844

B is (+)
B-E no reading
B-C no reading

(+)E-(-)C no reading
(-)E-(+)C no reading

[Toasty]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

Q1 tests look fine.

I'd like to see the board component side with the 3 big yellow caps removed. Can you do that and take a picture please?

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

here you go

[Toasty]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

The part I expected to see is not in this circuit. Same as post 5, crystal or crystal resonator. Since it's not here, that is ruled out as a failure/problem.

Either of 2 things at this point:
1) the IC is bad. With the light latched on, I would believe this one more.
2) the receiver circuit (little board) has a failure and is off frequency. That repair requires a scope at a minimum and the ability to generate the 433.9MHz signal.

I think we've hit the wall at this point. I do not see the IC available anywhere.



Toast

[playman]

Re: testing RF remote (re-posting)

oh well, thanks for your help, it's really apreciated.
I have to check if I can find some one to be able to check the board IC for me,
i'll report back if I have any luck.

thanks again
Playman