![]() |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
![]() |
#1 |
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2005
City & State: ----
My Country: Sweden
Line Voltage: 230v 50Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 5,121
|
![]() Was browsing Mouser looking to get some new 1500µF 10v caps in 10x16mm size to replace UCC KZG and Nichicon HM rated at 0.018Ω ESR and 2000mA ripple.
No such caps in electrolytic versions really exist from reputable brands anymore. So I looked at the solid polymer range and came across the updated version of the UCC PSG. It's rated for 0.008Ω ESR and 7700mA ripple with an endurance of 20000h, that is 10 times the endurance of the KZG & HM electrolytics! Have not seen anything like that before! I have been using Sanyo SEPC 820µF 4v solid polymers in place, they are rated for 0.007Ω ESR and 6640mA ripple, but "just" 5000h endurance. Might actually get the 1000µF version of the UCC PSG next time I order, as it's ESR is slightly higher at 0.012Ω putting it closer to the originals ![]() If Z height is no objection then the electrolytic Panasonic FR 1500µF 16v at 10x20mm with 0.020Ω ESR and 2180mA ripple is a given choice. Being rated at 10000h it's a pretty much identical replacement. But as can be seen in the picture that can not always be used everywhere ![]()
__________________
"The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it." Last edited by Per Hansson; 11-10-2017 at 01:28 PM.. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Badcaps Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2005
City & State: San Jose, CA
My Country: USA, Unsure of Planet
Line Voltage: 120VAC, 60Hz & 115VAC, 400Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 3,385
|
![]() You're a Mouser Browser?
![]() More seriously, back when I was looking at polymers for Curtis Inst. they were usually rated for 2000 hours. They've come a long way!
__________________
PeteS in CA Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells. **************************** To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it. **************************** Anti-Covid-Vaxxer pig crap claim/prediction, Doctor: Heart Failure from mRNA Jabs "Will Kill Most People" | Principia Scientific Intl. ; Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche Warns COVID-19 Jab Injuries and Deaths Will Soon "Collapse Our Health System" (VIDEO) ; Fully Vaxxed May 2021; Since that time I've done 7 5Ks, 1 8K, 8 10Ks, and 4 half marathons |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Badcaps Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,346
|
![]() Out of curiosity, I opened up two polymers last night. The first, a Sanyo OSCON, probably around 15 or so years old. The second, a Fujitsu bumblebee.
These are both polymer caps. People have speculated that the bumblebees were "hybrid polymer", but I'm not sure what they meant by it, because it looked like an ordinary polymer to me. Now the surprising part was that BOTH the polymer caps had dry, crusty insulative polymer layers. It got me thinking: Was this just a result of early polymer technology, or will modern polymers also degrade to this degree over time. Seeing your thread title gets me thinking again whether polymers are indeed better than good electrolytics over a long period of time. The 20,000 hour load multiple (the rule that longevity increases with lower stress), may not apply to polymer capacitors. Yes, they may be able to withstand a harsh environment in the longer run versus an electrolytic cap, but they probably can't compete with an electrolytic cap in the long run under low-stress conditions.
__________________
"...I suppose he wants to be free of youthful associations, as most of us do." -Robertson Davies "...don't say oh my god, your god is far away from you. I give you massage. I am your god now." -Luo Dong |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Great Sage 齊天大聖
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 26,660
|
![]() oscon's do age badly.
i cant say if anything else does because i have only seen really old oscon's |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | ||
-
Join Date: Nov 2011
City & State: CA.
My Country: USA.
Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz.
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 1,265
|
![]() Yeah, Chemi-con has been rating their polymers for 15,000 hours - 20,000 hours at 105ºC at the rated voltage for a while now. That’s not at the rated ripple current, however, which would increase the core temperature (in the case of polymers since they are rated for very high ripple ratings) an additional 20ºC (105ºC polymers have a maximum core temperature of 125ºC), thus decreasing the lifespan to 1,500 - 2,000 hours.
Nichicon confirms this much, if you use Nichicon’s online capacitor calculator and put in the maximum rated ripple current in both ripple current fields, then calculate the results. In accordance to this document by Chemi-con, the formula for calculating life expectancy for polymers is different to that of electrolytics (pages 11 and 12). A polymer’s lifespan will increase 10x per 20ºC drop (although polymers that are sealed with rubber are still only rated for 15 years max, in accordance to that calculator and Chemi-con). Quote:
Rubycon’s PZA series also has a vent stamp, but there is no mention on their site of PZA being a “hybrid” in any sense of the word. PCBONEZ was somehow (may still be somehow) convinced that the older Fujitsu polymers are hybrids because they are “functional” polymers, but looking at page 3 of that Chemi-con document, “functional polymer” is just another term for solid polymer. Hybrids do exist, of course, but their specs are not as good as regular polymers. Those early Fujitsu polymers were inconsistent insofar as reliability. Sometimes they would slightly bloat and go open after a couple years, other times they’d last much longer... quite a few 16+ year old Fujitsu polymers are still good. Quote:
However, so long as that doesn’t happen, I would peg polymers as more reliable than even good electrolytics. The reason being that good electrolytics will eventually dry out (or possibly leak) even with a good rubber bung. Electrolytics also rely upon hydrogen scavengers, hydrogen absorbers, depolarizers, neutralizers, oxidizers, and other additives to preclude the generation of hydrogen gas, a process that is always occurring even minimally in all electrolytics. Polymers do not have a liquid solution that is bound to eventually decompose (although they may experience field crystallization over time, decreasing the conductivity of the polymer electrolyte). As for Sanyo OS-CON, there are two different types of “OS-CON” capacitors: those that use a conductive functional polymer (PEDOT) as the cathode layer material (those unsleeved) and those that use TCNQ complex salt (those with the lilac sleeve, which were discontinued 7 years back). Those have a much lower pyrolysis temperature than polymers, and also rely on temperature multipliers for the ripple rating (unlike polymers). I’m guessing the latter are the ones that age badly. Last edited by Wester547; 11-12-2017 at 02:36 PM.. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Great Sage 齊天大聖
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 26,660
|
![]() the degraded poly's i saw where the purple sleeve ones - the blue-sleeve ones seem less degraded with age.
both pulled from the same intel motherboards - so had identical hours on them. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | |||
Badcaps Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,346
|
![]() Quote:
Regarding the bloating, it was also mentioned at the time IIRC that bloat on bumblebees was harmless and that the top should just be manually pushed back in. Quote:
Quote:
You're referring to the UCC OS-CONs. I have some of those too I should really have a peek inside one of them. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | ||||
-
Join Date: Nov 2011
City & State: CA.
My Country: USA.
Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz.
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 1,265
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Great Sage 齊天大聖
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 26,660
|
![]() sanyo ones - light sky blue sleeves.
they are distinct series - but i dont have the datasheets handy. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | ||
Badcaps Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,346
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Great Sage 齊天大聖
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 26,660
|
![]() i doubt there was a bung too, the can has no crimp-ridge
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 | ||
-
Join Date: Nov 2011
City & State: CA.
My Country: USA.
Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz.
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 1,265
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Wester547; 11-13-2017 at 11:58 AM.. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2005
City & State: ----
My Country: Sweden
Line Voltage: 230v 50Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 5,121
|
![]() Quote:
Of course I can understand why they did it, in one way it's unfair. But it depends how you look at it. Since the PSG caps in my example are rated for 4x the ripple of the KZG or HM caps they would be replacing of course they will not be exposed to that kind of ripple current. So in all likelyhood they will last longer than I will ![]() Last edited by Per Hansson; 11-18-2017 at 04:05 AM.. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Badcaps Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Prague, 50°4'52.22"N, 14°23'30.45"E
My Country: CZ
Line Voltage: 230 V/50 Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 4,701
|
![]() There are still the Suncons WG, I do want to get them, but since I am not heavy on cash ATM, it will have to wait. Payment up front with this distributor. Considering how well other crowfunds ever happened here, guess that it will be no ultra-low ESR caps for yo guys anytime soon.
Maybe if you guys were browsing less through all these Mousers and crap, could have had all the necessary caps already…I use them too ya know. Just could not afford to stock everything I like cause most jobs usually don't even pay the full batch if I only need few pieces of it. Only occasionally, like now, I also need some bipolars or larger HV (100V) caps, like for this terrible Cambridge/Creative sub with all that shit inside.* There is work enough so it will maybe pay signifficantly more caps than I need. But there is still the thing with owing for rent for like year and a half now ![]() ___________ *It seems that during the first, warranty repair, they changed the original caps for another crap (Teapo SEK). They managed to get bad again, together with the 100V caps. Does anybody really need more evidence to believe only ANIMALS use crap caps for repairs?
__________________
Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! ![]() ![]() Exclusive caps, meters and more! Hardware Insights - power supply reviews and more!
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2005
City & State: ----
My Country: Sweden
Line Voltage: 230v 50Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 5,121
|
![]() Yea Suncon WG really is a perfect replacement too.
I have a list of caps that are equivalent replacements It's Samxon GC that I've used in the past. And Rubycon MBZ and MCZ. But as we know they are all EOL. Anyway replacing them with what I wrote in the OP is really the best. Sanyo WG don't exist in 10000h lifetime version, let alone 20000h ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Badcaps Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Prague, 50°4'52.22"N, 14°23'30.45"E
My Country: CZ
Line Voltage: 230 V/50 Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 4,701
|
![]() Yep, that's why I want to det those when there is pretty much no alternative
![]() None of the ultra-low ESR caps ever got over 2000 hours IIRC. Though I noticed they updated these and now the sheet lists 2000-4000 hours. Not THAT bad I guess. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Cap Clutcher
Join Date: Sep 2011
City & State: NL
My Country: The Netherlands
Line Voltage: 230VAC 50Hz
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 41
|
![]() Wow! Those nice fat PSG series polymer makes perfect replacements for some larger 16v KZG-class caps (8x16 to 10x20).
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Badcaps Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Prague, 50°4'52.22"N, 14°23'30.45"E
My Country: CZ
Line Voltage: 230 V/50 Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 4,701
|
![]() Well if what Wester says is true, the actual endurance is NOT listed at temperature AND ripple, and by recalculating it, you get the same 2000 hours…is it a much difference than?
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
-
Join Date: Nov 2011
City & State: CA.
My Country: USA.
Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz.
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 1,265
|
![]() At temperatures below 105ºC, yes.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Badcaps Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Prague, 50°4'52.22"N, 14°23'30.45"E
My Country: CZ
Line Voltage: 230 V/50 Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 4,701
|
![]() Well according to my math, it makes 15 years at 55 °C for Suncon WG 10×23 and 22831 years for the PSGs at 2000 hours (real). So I think pretty much the same, 15+ years for MoBo? Like srsly?
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|