What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

[jonnytx]

Hello everyone

I want to buy capasitors 100uF for reserve. And I do not know what to choose. Please advise.

Panasonic:


( http://www.ebay.com/itm/100UF-25V-PA...item1a000c06f2 )

SANYO:


( http://www.ebay.com/itm/330600515046...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT )

[c_hegge]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

The panny FMs are probably the better parts, but it's poor practice to get caps from eBay, as fake parts are extremely common. I would normally suggest getting them from element14 or RS components (both based in the UK). I don't know whether either of those two are available in Russia, though.

[ReeceyBurger123]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

Panasonic all the way, while sanyo are good some do have issues. Be careful when buying off ebay you dont want to get fakes which is very common on ebay.

[stj]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

why FM series ??

[c_hegge]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

^
Why not??

[ReeceyBurger123]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

^ Why not ? What application are you using them for ?
^

[stj]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

^
Why not??

because FR are cheaper and have a longer life.

[ReeceyBurger123]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

because FR are cheaper and have a longer life.

But you didnt state that, thats why he asked.

[jonnytx]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

"FM" is recommended in some forums for audio circuits

[momaka]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

Just about anything will work in an audio circuit (with NO difference in performance) as long as it hasn't gone high ESR or high leackage. But obviously if you want long-lasting repair, you should use a good Japanese brand and series (i.e. not Chemicon KZG or KZJ).

Like the others said, avoid eBay. Very few sellers sell genuine stuff. In particular, almost anything from China and HK is counterfeit or pure junk. The only two stores I know off the top of my head that sell good caps on eBay are egekecu (PC Motherboard Capacitor Store) and member Behemot here (not sure of his store name). Possibly kc8adu, too, but I am not sure.
And then there is also Badcaps.net/store (surprise surprise ).

[CapSwapper]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

never buy capacitors off ebay. I bought a mechanical part once but was sent ten 10uF capacitors by mistake. all the capacitors tested 0 capacitance and 0 resistance.

[linuxguru]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

Just about anything will work in an audio circuit (with NO difference in performance) as long as it hasn't gone high ESR or high leackage.

Any capacitor series may work, but they won't sound the same. In particular, you generally want to use low tan-delta (< 1%) electrolytics in audio circuits. There are a handful that are exceptionally linear (Rubycon BG NX, Elna Cerafine, Nichicon KZ, etc.) and several that are acceptably linear (Rubycon YXA, YXG, ZL, ZLH, ZLG, Panasonic FM, etc.) for most audio applications.

If you can afford it and can manage with relatively small values, a film cap like a Wima MKS2XL is exceptionally linear (tan delta < 0.1%) and compact enough (5 mm pitch) to replace most small electrolytics.

Like the others said, avoid eBay. Very few sellers sell genuine stuff. In particular, almost anything from China and HK is counterfeit or pure junk.

I'm not sure that I agree - I've bought more than 100 lots from various EBay sources in China and HK, and exactly 4 lots may have been counterfeit - an Elna Silmic II with purple sleeve, a Nichicon HD, another Elna Silmic II with black and gold sleeve and an Elna Tonerex.

Of those, the guy selling the Nichicon HD did not claim that it was Nichicon HD in the listing - the listing photo showed a Nichicon and some text that looked like HD. The black Elna Silmic II 10uF/50V measures *better* than the original Japanese white on brown Elna Silmic II that I have - it's either a re-mark of some other high-quality series, or an authentic one from some other plant. The purple-sleeved Silmic II measures OK, but looks like a fake. And the guy who sold the Tonerex sent out an apology to everybody who bought it from him, saying that he himself had been scammed - and I believe him, because everything else I've bought from him, including Cerafines, has been authentic. The only Rubycon Black Gates that I've bought on EBay some 6 years ago also turned out to be genuine, despite the relatively low price then: that particular value - 4700uF/35V, now runs to a couple of hundred dollars *each*, and might attract counterfeiters now.

In short, fake electrolytics on EBay are rarer than commonly believed. Every Panasonic FM I've bought on EBay over the last 10 years has been genuine - it's a very inexpensive and widely available series, so there is no incentive to fake it. I don't think that many vendors are willing to destroy their EBay reputation by selling counterfeits of inexpensive parts like Panasonic FMs. The main target of the counterfeiters seems to be Elna series sought by audiophools, and even those can be avoided if you have a keen eye and stick to small repeat orders with known-good vendors.

[momaka]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

Any capacitor series may work, but they won't sound the same.

How so? What makes audio caps so "special"?

Sorry to be an a-hole here, but I think anyone defending that statement above should provide O-scope / spectrum analyzer / distortion analyzer shots or some other form of evidence. Simply hearing a difference doesn't cut it. I rather see meaningful numbers and graphs.

Here is a fun story in the below link by kc8adu. I think you should read it :
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...19&postcount=3

The only Rubycon Black Gates that I've bought on EBay some 6 years ago also turned out to be genuine, despite the relatively low price then: that particular value - 4700uF/35V, now runs to a couple of hundred dollars *each*, and might attract counterfeiters now.

^ I am guessing those are audiophool caps.

Don't forget to buy a rubber vibration-absorbing plug with that (it kills 50/60 Hz vibration from the line), along with gold-plate fuses and holders - the reduction in resistance really makes an audible difference.

In short, fake electrolytics on EBay are rarer than commonly believed.

Technically speaking, you are right - fake electrolytic caps are indeed very very rare. However, knock-off caps of big-name manufacturers are definitely NOT.

No offense, but I think you have been gone from BNC way too long. Just look around the forum - plenty of threads with counterfeit caps from eBay here.

Every Panasonic FM I've bought on EBay over the last 10 years has been genuine

Then please share with us which sellers/stores you buy your caps from. I would really like to know.

I don't think that many vendors are willing to destroy their EBay reputation by selling counterfeits of inexpensive parts like Panasonic FMs.

Many eBay sellers don't give a rat's ass.
In particular, the ones I am talking about are those that sell not only capacitors but all kinds of junk - from bikinis to zener diodes.

Most of those sellers just want to push some cheap garbage out and make a quick buck. And if the buyer complains, give them a partial or full refund with no questions asked and keep on sellin'.

Unfortunately, the majority of people have no clue about the quality of the product they are buying. And many times, the product usually works just long enough for the buyer to leave positive feedback.

[linuxguru]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

How so? What makes audio caps so "special"?

Sorry to be an a-hole here, but I think anyone defending that statement above should provide O-scope / spectrum analyzer / distortion analyzer shots or some other form of evidence. Simply hearing a difference doesn't cut it. I rather see meaningful numbers and graphs.

Linearity is one key, measurable parameter. The change in capacitance with voltage should be minimal - as the capacitor charges/discharges, the value of C should remain unchanged. Most motherboard low- and ultralow-ESR caps don't come anywhere near this, with measurable tan(delta) in the region of 1 to 3%. Very good audio-grade capacitors range from 0.3% to 1%. Film capacitors typically go below 0.1%. Polypropylene is typically below 0.01 %. Polystyrene can approach 0.000001%. Vacuum is the ideal dielectric, with tan(delta) being zero.

It's easy to measure tan(delta) with a curve tracer. And it's not difficult to hear the difference between the various capacitors with just a pair of headphones and a signal generator that can generate a pure single-tone 1 KHz note. The better the cap gets on linearity, the lower the higher harmonics.

^ I am guessing those are audiophool caps.

Don't forget to buy a rubber vibration-absorbing plug with that (it kills 50/60 Hz vibration from the line), along with gold-plate fuses and holders - the reduction in resistance really makes an audible difference.

Black Gates *were* affordable electrolytics that approached the linearity of film caps (tan(delta) around 0.1 to 0.3%) at a fraction of the price, around 10-15 years ago. Today, they're priced in the stratosphere due to non-availability.

I haven't seen the rubber vibration absorbing plugs, but I've seen metal dummy banana plugs that are to be plugged into unused speaker-out terminals to prevent the output signal from escaping into space and interfering with line-level signal cables and other sources. Of course, the more expensive ones come with gold- and rhodium-plated terminals.

Just look around the forum - plenty of threads with counterfeit caps from eBay here. ... Then please share with us which sellers/stores you buy your caps from. I would really like to know.

I know about the anecdotes of fake electrolytics on EBay - actually, I would like to know how so many people got scammed. Just careful cross checks of the vendor's selling history, other products offered, specifications of the electrolytic and general appearance of fonts, sleeves, etc. would have helped avoid most of the sad stories.

[momaka]

Re: What are the best capacitors? SANYO or Panasonic FM?

Linearity is one key, measurable parameter...

Okay, but then ask yourself this. Can this parameter make any *significant* difference in the overall audio system (i.e. source + amplifier + speakers)?
Put an o-scope or distortion analyzer on that, and I bet it won't.

Now, I will be honest with you - I am no expert when it comes to amplifiers (not even a long shot). However, a bit of research shows that a good amplifier design will not care much, if at all (and it shouldn't), what caps you use. One of the better reads I found was a book called "Designing Audio Power Amplifiers" by Bob Cordell. I don't want to go more off-topic than I already am here, so let me just sum it up for you.

In short, unless you have an audio amplifier design that uses coupling capacitors on the output stage (or just a really crappy amplifier design), the type of caps you use are very unlikely to affect the audio signal by any measurable amount. Also, the average human ear can only detect about 0.3% distortion at best. And that's not even considering the effects of masking and the Fletcher-Munson free field equal-loudness contours for pure tones (i.e. the relative perceived loudness for different frequencies varies at different volume levels). So the whole "I can hear a difference because I have trained ears" thing is nothing but a myth.

And I won't even go into speaker cone distortion here or speaker placement in the room, as that usually affects the audio "experience" more than anything else.

I haven't seen the rubber vibration absorbing plugs, but I've seen metal dummy banana plugs that are to be plugged into unused speaker-out terminals to prevent the output signal from escaping into space and interfering with line-level signal cables and other sources. Of course, the more expensive ones come with gold- and rhodium-plated terminals.

^
What can I say? There are all kinds of audiophool gadgets on the internet. The rubber plug thing was posted on a thread here not too long ago. If I find it again, I'll post it for you . It was pretty comical IMO.

I know about the anecdotes of fake electrolytics on EBay - actually, I would like to know how so many people got scammed.

Over 9000!!!!
Sorry, I couldn't resist that one. Short answer: almost anyone that bought caps on eBay that didn't know about counterfeit caps.

Just careful cross checks of the vendor's selling history, other products offered, specifications of the electrolytic and general appearance of fonts, sleeves, etc. would have helped avoid most of the sad stories.

More work than it's worth. I rather spend a few $$ extra from a reputable parts place and know that I got genuine caps. The savings on eBay are hardly justifiable. Perhaps only if you are trying to buy "just a few" caps and don't want to spend $6-$10 on shipping.

But once you need a bigger quantity, it really starts to make more sense to buy from a bigger component place. Both Digikey and Mouser have quite good price breaks for larger orders. And I also like their search engines - takes me a minute or two (max.) to find exactly what I need.
BCN store can be quite competitive for larger orders too. So I really see no reason to risk it for a few $ in savings.