25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

[Almighty1]

I am looking for a 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor for a PC Power & Cooling Turbo-450ATX Power Supply. Originally, I was told the Nichicon HC was a good option except I can not find it in stock anywhere. The Rubycon ZLG has the exact same 270mOhm impedance and 350mA ripple current as the Nichicon HC except it is also not in stock anywhere. Are there other good options?

[kc8adu]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

that is a noncritical part.
in my shop that would get a 22@50 panasonic fc.
where in the circuit is this cap?

[Almighty1]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

Not sure exactly where it is in the circuit except it's c33 (red arrow), I know it shares the (-) with the 6.3v 47uF cap (c43 aka blue arrow), both are Teapo's originally. Would I have any problems replacing it with a 25v cap? Isn't the Panasonic FC more for Automotive applications, would the 50v Panasonic FR be a better replacement as it has a longer rated life and higher ripple, lower impedence?

[budm]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

You can use the FR, it looks like for the low voltage switching power supply section.

[c_hegge]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

in my shop that would get a 22@50 panasonic fc.

Same here. I use 22uF 50V Panny FCs for similar caps all the time.

[Almighty1]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

I noticed both of you mentioned the Panasonic FC cap which seems to be listed as for Automotive use, would it actually matter what the use is for as it seems like there are Elna 25v 22uF caps for audio use out there, would this work as well?

[kc8adu]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

yes it matters.
you will open a black hole using automotive grade parts in your power supply.
i dammed near did that putting an automotive headlight led in a desklamp.
stuck a chevy sticker on it before powering up.
fc are entry level low esr caps.
easier to stock them to replace gp stuff too.

[Almighty1]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

I guess it was digikeys search that shows FC as Automotive which was what was confusing. As far as low ESR, what number would actually be acceptable for a Power Supply as I noticed low ESR on the FC means 1.5Ohms while on the FR means 0.340Ohms which is about 4x less, would the FR be too low of a impedence?

[c_hegge]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

^
Digikey are wrong. FC is not an automotive cap, but an entry level Low ESR capacitor - exactly the same as Nichicon PW and Chemi-con LXZ.

As for what an acceptable number is, it depends on what the original cap was. 9 times out of 10, the small caps are just GP caps, and so Panny FC is easily good enough to replace them.

[Almighty1]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

Making sure I get the terminology correct, does entry level mean low-end quality or does it actually mean something else? I guess my confusion is in the spec sheets, Panasonic labels the FC and FR as Low ESR but Nichicon for example in their HN and HZ spec sheets for example would list Ultra ESR and even says for motherboard at the top of the spec sheet, does Panasonic even make Ultra ESR caps or have anything that competes in that market? In other words, is Low ESR basically what the manufacturer calls it in the spec sheets as I notice the General Purpose usage is not even mentioned in the spec sheets. I guess the Panasonic FR has a longer rated life which is the only reason to choose it over FC.

[c_hegge]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

In this context, entry level just means that the ESR is only just low enough to be considered Low - just a little lower than a GP cap. It's not an ultra low ESR cap like Nichicon HM or something like that. Panny do make ultra low ESR caps. The FJ and FL series are equivalent to Nichicon HM.

For the small caps, I prefer going with entry level low ESR caps, as they can handle a little more stress than GP caps, but their electrical specs are still close to the originals, so it's not likely to upset anything.

[Almighty1]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

Interesting. Had to figure out what entry-level meant as it seems to be a higher ESR than the lowest ESR available for a low ESR. I thought Nichicon's Ultra Low ESR would be called the HN and HZ. Wouldn't the FJ and FL actually be higher ESR than the HZ?

For ESR, is it similar to voltage where if you had a higher voltage rating than the originals, you basically get more room for overhead but how does it work when dealing with ESR, would a lower ESR replacement make it less stressful or would a higher ESR than the original be better since I always thought it was like this, you can always exceed the original spec in voltage and ripple current and it will just not push it to the limits but not sure how it works for ESR.

[c_hegge]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

Maybe I should explain a bit about how the ESR works. The ESR is a form of resistance which occurs under AC conditions (ie, ripple). It can essentially be though of as a cap's resistance to ripple. It affects how fast the cap can charge and discharge when presented with oscillations in its voltage. A Lower ESR usually is better at suppressing ripple, but in a Power Supply, the feedback loop is tuned around the output filtering, and if you chance the electrical characteristics of it, you can induce an oscillation into the feedback loop, which, in severe cases, can cause the ripple to dramatically increase and the voltage regulation to suffer. I demonstrated that by attempting to Poly-mod a Seasonic Super Silencer PSU a few years ago (see http://hardwareinsights.com/wp/poly-...ually-work/10/ for the article). For the smaller caps, they can be used for timing controls in the feedback circuit, and again, changing their characteristics significantly can cause problems if the PSU is tuned around certain parts.

However, Buck and linear DC-DC conversion circuits (which are used on motherboards) work a little differently from bridge and forward convertors, in that the feedback is taken before the output caps, as opposed to after or between them, which means that you can usually change their properties without affecting the feedback, and thus using lower ESR caps is almost always better.

As far as how ESR is classed, this is how I usually class them (note that these grades are how I refer to them only, and are not by any means official)

Entry Level: Panny FC, Nichicon PW, NCC LXZ

Mid Grade: NCC KY, Nichicon HE, Ruby YXG

High Grade: Ruby ZL, NCC KZE, Nichicon HD, Panny FM

Ultra Low: Nichicon HM, HN, HZ, Panny FJ, FL, NCC KZG, KZJ, Ruby MBZ, MCZ.

[Almighty1]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

Thanks c_hegge for taking the time for the explanation. Isn't Poly's going to have a UltraLow ESR compared to regular capacitors though? In any case, is there such a thing as a entry level long life replacement as one of the two reasons I looked at the Panasonic FR was because of the 5,000 hr endurance rating and of course the other reason was in the PC Power & Cooling Turbo-Cool 450ATX replacement capacitor thread, I mentioned the Nichicon HC and the only person who responded said it was a good option which meant even with that ESR rating, it wasn't a bad choice and the FR still is a bit higher than the HC, the FR seems to be just a long life version of the FM so would the FR actually be in the high grade in how you would classify it?

[Jonny Accelerant]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

Entry Level: Panny FC, Nichicon PW, NCC LXZ

Mid Grade: NCC KY, Nichicon HE, Ruby YXG

High Grade: Ruby ZL, NCC KZE, Nichicon HD, Panny FM

Ultra Low: Nichicon HM, HN, HZ, Panny FJ, FL, NCC KZG, KZJ, Ruby MBZ, MCZ.

I used to have basic electronics knowledge that never got applied, so while some of this post makes sense, and sounds familiar, I miss most of the nuance. For basic cap replacement on monitors, TV's and PSU's, can I just assume that the "High Grade" caps are a "one size fits all", or are there going to be times where low is necessary and high is bad, and vice versa?

My concern is that I may need to learn/relearn more electronics theory before I am capable of making the decision on what the replacement caps is going to be on whatever random hardware I'm working on. Looking for a "one size fits all" solution, if there is one.

[budm]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

Esr.

[Almighty1]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

Ordered the Panasonic FR 50v 22uF cap from Digikey which was received today, it is made in Malaysia. Does the Panasonic FC caps actually have Panasonic or any logo indicating the brand mentioned anywhere as all mines has is the following:
22uF50V
- polarity marking
105C FR

[c_hegge]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

Panny FR don't usually have a logo on them. FC do, though.

[Almighty1]

Re: 25v 22uF 6mmx13mm replacement capacitor

I think maybe after Matsushita changed to Panasonic, all new serieses don't have their name on them. I wonder if recent manufactured FC's still have the logo. FC's sure look a lot better than the FR's...