ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

[3v0]

Hi, first thread.

Some googling around for xbox360 fixes turned up some results from this forum which have been helpful. This post however is for my PC. I'll post the 360 thread shortly after this one, so if you're looking for something to do, post up in that one too! Thanks in advance.

So, to the point. My pc has been randomly crashing for a while now. I've reinstalled, updated OS, drivers, etc. Ran ram tests, swapped sticks, p/s. I've tried debugging error dumps but that is a bit over my head. I haven't come to the conclusion absolutely being bad caps. However, when I took a look at the mobo, I did find 3 bulging caps. I'm hoping they are the problem. 95% of the time my pc crashes(blue screen), I'm in the middle of a game. Some times it will just crash the game, but others it's a bsod. It also seems crash more when the room temp is higher(since the winter it has significantly crashed less). I ran some temp monitoring software and the temps didn't see hatefully high. No other problems besides game/pc crashes seem to exist.

Now, I've tried IDing the caps but I can't get a clear view of the writing on them. I could be a little less lazy and perhaps see them by removing everything from the board including sinks. Maybe. I just want to stay out of it until I'm ready to fix if possible. So, I found a schematic for this board online found here:

I also see there are markings on the mobo near each cap. EC35, EC38, and EC41. I found those numbers in the schematic, and they gave me stats for each cap(I'm assuming).
1000u/6.3v/8x11.5/3.5mm for all 3. All appear to be physically the same dimensions. Is it reasonably safe to assume this info would be sufficient to order replacement caps without verifying on the board first? I'm having difficulty finding 1000u. Should that be uF?

Suggestions? Thanks.

[momaka]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

I haven't come to the conclusion absolutely being bad caps. However, when I took a look at the mobo, I did find 3 bulging caps. I'm hoping they are the problem.

Oh, I am over 100% sure that they are!

Now, I've tried IDing the caps but I can't get a clear view of the writing on them. I could be a little less lazy and perhaps see them by removing everything from the board including sinks. Maybe. I just want to stay out of it until I'm ready to fix if possible.
...
Is it reasonably safe to assume this info would be sufficient to order replacement caps without verifying on the board first?

No.

It's always better to take out the motherboard completely out of the case and ID the caps yourself. Sometimes, manufacturers do board revision and whatnot, so they may change the caps without reflecting this in the schematic. MOREOVER, noting the brand and series of the failed capacitors on YOUR board is the most important, because this is what you need when you are looking for replacements. Simply putting in a cap with the same capacitance (uF) rating and voltage (V) rating is NOT ENOUGH! The ESR and ripple current of the replacement caps must match or exceed the specs of the originals - and this you can know only by finding a datasheet for the brand and series caps that are installed on your motherboard. Also, once you identify the brand and series of the failed capacitors, you should replace not just the failed ones, but ALL of the capacitors from that brand, especially if they are a cheap Chinese or Taiwanese brand. Otherwise, you may have to do a recap in the future again once more of the same brand capacitors fail.

My suggestion to you is to take out the motherboard completely and write down the information from ALL of the caps on the motherboard. That is, write down the brand, series (usually a 2 or 3 letter string), capacitance (uF), voltage (V), and diameter (measured in mm). Also note where they are located (i.e. near CPU, near Northbridge, near PCI-E connector, etc.) and post more pictures of the entire board. Then post all of this information here. This will tell use if there are any other brand of capacitors that may need replacement.

I know this seems like a lot of work, but it really isn't (I just tend to write very long posts). Also, to save you some time and work, I would say don't bother too much (or at all!) with any capacitors that are rated for 330uF and lower. Some motherboards have a ton of these, but they are usually not critical.

Looks like the failed brown ones on your board are TK (Toshin Kogyo). If true, you should replace ALL of them, because they are known to fail a lot.

I'm having difficulty finding 1000u. Should that be uF?

Yes, uF (actually small Greek letter "mu" and then "F" .... stands for micro Farads).

**EDIT**
I found this thread for you:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...hlight=MS-7548
I think it may be helpful since, judging by the elektrotanya schematic link you posted, this board is an MSI MS-7548.

[3v0]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Thanks for your detailed response. I was hoping I could be lazy but no thanks to you. :p

As soon as I get a little bit of time, I'll pull the board.

[3v0]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

So, after I pulled and reinstalled, I realized better pictures were needed once I followed that link in your last post...

I didn't see any other caps that were bad, but there are a LOT of those TK caps in there. I managed to get info off all the caps except for some very small ones. However, I didn't get diameter measurements off of any. Is that going to be a big deal?

The 3 bad ones are all the same: TK 6.3v 1000uF. I understand the preventative maintenance in replacing all the suspect caps on the board; I'm just not sure I want to. Is every cap made by TK crappy? The only other caps on the board that aren't poly are G Luxon. Are they also sub par caps?

[3v0]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

A little more information and request for help with correct replacements.

From my little diagram that I drew like a kindergartner I have:

15 TK 1800uf/6.3v/8x20/3.5 ATMB 837A (8 of these on the vcore)
7 Tk 1000uf/6.3v/8x11.5/3.5mm(the failed ones) ATWY 828A
5 TK 1000uf/16v/
1 470u/16v/8X11.5/3.5mm
8 very small TK 10uf?/16v caps by the rear line outs.

The rest are a couple of polymers, and G luxons. I originally only wanted to replace the bad ones. I don't want to do the whole board if it can be helped. The caps that obviously failed are the same(1000uf/6.3v). I definitely want to replace the 7 on the board. Looking at the sticky, I pulled up the specs for them: https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...cd0bf0a074.pdf.

I've been doing a little searching on mouser(I'd use badcaps if he had the polys I need for my xbox), but I'm having problems finding a suitable substitute. I'm seeing caps with 1000ma or less of ripple, when the caps that are in there are rated at 2000. Google tells me I can replace with a value equal to or higher ripple, but since I'm clueless about this stuff, I don't know how strict a rule that is.

For example I was looking at these: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...1lWF1%252b4%3d , but not sure because of ripple.

The more I look, the more I get lost.

[mockingbird]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

You have to replace all the caps, minus the polymers and the small sound circuit/filtering caps.

Just because they're not bulged, doesn't mean they haven't failed. This is especially true for those G-Luxon caps. The caps you referenced from Mouser are inadequate as replacements being that they're general purpose caps with too high ESR and too low a ripple rating. What are the dimensions of the TK 16V 1000uF caps?

[Uniballer]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Nichicon HZ seems like it should work to replace the TK 1000uF 6.3v caps. But unless you want 800 minimum you can't buy 'em from Digikey.

[3v0]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

What are the dimensions of the TK 16V 1000uF caps?

They appear to be the same size as the 1000uf I posted (8x20/3.5). I'm assuming the lead spacing is the same.

And nah, I don't want 800.

Is there a good way to quickly find compatible caps? Or am I just going to have to click and read for all results returned to me based off of voltage and uf?

[mockingbird]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Don't worry about the spacing.

Yes, buy from this website, that's the easiest thing to do. If he's missing stock of a particular cap, then check if you can find a supplier that has everything you need. You can use Nichicon HM/HN/HZ fromt his website.

Don't forget about your PSU. Which model do you have?

[3v0]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Forgive my ignorance, but what concerns should I have with my psu?

This is the one I have: http://www.evga.com/Products/Product...100-B1-0500-KR

[mockingbird]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Never mind. That's a good PSU. Not the best, but good. It only came on the market a few months ago.

[3v0]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

I bought it a few months ago trying to track down this problem I'm having. Apparently, it wasn't the issue.

When buying different caps to replace the ones I have, should I always match the ripple at minimum? I feel like I'm looking at a million part numbers and values.

[momaka]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Is every cap made by TK crappy?

Based on threads I've seen here, I would definitely say YES. If you don't replace them all, chances are that some will bulge or go bad only in a short amount of time and you would have to break down the computer again to repair it. Better all at once when you have it out. Now, I know you may be hesitating to do that, especially if you haven't done many recaps and are worried that you may damage the motherboard. However, after you change a few capacitors, you will get better at it, and the rest won't seem so bad. It that vs. replacing just a few caps, then having to open the computer again in a few months to replace some more bad caps and then "learning" all over again how to replace caps.

The only other caps on the board that aren't poly are G Luxon. Are they also sub par caps?

Yes, G-Luxon are quite bad too, though if they are in less important areas, they may not be that much of a problem. But still, like I mentioned above, if you're doing a few, you might as well do them all. As long as you have a powerful enough soldering iron, this won't be a big deal. I suggest an iron capable of 60W minimum to make it easier for you.

Also, here are the caps you can use...

For 15x TK 1800uf/6.3v/8x20/3.5 ATMB (Vcore) - looks like you may have to do polymers as 8mm HN/HZs are not available anymore:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...03yXYRMtn5E%3d
and maybe 2 or 3 these:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...KtPM1LI3uWc%3d
(that way the FRs will help bring up the total capacitance a bit)
or either of these:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...yYTmgrDfN9Y%3d
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...SXtKXyfmBTg%3d

7x Tk 1000uf/6.3v/8x11.5/3.5mm ATWY, you have many choices:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...brE7k8eUTgw%3d
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...dAHzzWKpiLE%3d
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...Mh8xbl9UCr8%3d
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...ToVMvzI3mGY%3d
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...C%2fVhzUHMg%3d

5 TK 1000uf/16v/
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...vbFsgf7RFzA%3d
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...fsgXLSihwsk%3d
(these two below are probably adequate, though not as good as the first 2 above)
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...LkHlT4VCXZw%3d
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...aayK2aQeRbY%3d

1 470u/16v/8X11.5/3.5mm
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...6wKJvlvKoMM%3d
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...S65%2fG92ro%3d

So you have quite a bit of choice there. The more expensive ones are a little better specced, but it's not needed unless that motherboard is special to you and you just want to go overkill on it .

[c_hegge]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Based on threads I've seen here, I would definitely say YES.

Possibly, although some say TK are more like Chemi-con (ie. unreliable ultra-low ESR series, but OK other series). I can't say for sure either way, though. I haven't encountered them in a PSU before.

[linuxguru]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Possibly, although some say TK are more like Chemi-con (ie. unreliable ultra-low ESR series, but OK other series). I can't say for sure either way, though. I haven't encountered them in a PSU before.

MSI used to be big on NCC KZG, OST RLP/RLS, Teapo, G-Luxon earlier - not sure about now.

I've come around to the view that ultra-low ESR aqueous electrolytics from almost any manufacturer are unreliable and not worth the trouble for most applications. They're only useful for Vcore filtering, where polymers are now a better alternative. All other positions are best replaced with an ultra long-life low-ESR series like Rubycon ZL, ZLH; or Panasonic FJ, FM, FR; or Nippon Chemicon KZE, KY, or LXZ. The same applies for PSUs, where some other alternatives are also usable, in particular non-aqueous series like FC, Nichicon P*, NCC LX*.

[3v0]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

A little more information and request for help with correct replacements.

From my little diagram that I drew like a kindergartner I have:

15 TK 1800uf/6.3v/8x20/3.5 ATMB 837A (8 of these on the vcore)
7 Tk 1000uf/6.3v/8x11.5/3.5mm(the failed ones) ATWY 828A
5 TK 1000uf/16v/
1 470u/16v/8X11.5/3.5mm
8 very small TK 10uf?/16v caps by the rear line outs.

Ok, I took the motherboard out again a couple of weeks ago and got some more information but I'm lost on a couple. This is the revised list of what I have, and the proposed replacements:

15 - tk 1800uf/6.3v/8x20/3.5 ATWB 2100 ripple
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Product...7-RE50E821MDN1

7 -tk 1000uf/6.3v/8x11.5/3.5 ATWY 1140 ripple (I could not find 1000uf caps in the puallinebarger.net archives. Only 680/820 but both had ripple ratings of 1140)
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Product...7-UHM0J102MPD3

2 - 10uf/16v/4x5/1.5 89jk? I originally thought these were tk but they are so small I can't say. It looks like that have 88jk/89jk stamped in the top of the cap. Since I can't ID, I can't go any further at the moment.

5 - tk 1000uf/16v/8x20/3.5 ATWB (can't find specs, only goes to 10v. I thought I had mistakenly ID'd as "ATWB" but a double check says otherwise)
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Product...7-EEU-FR1C102L (will these still work?)

9-G luxon 100uf/16v/6.3x5/2.5 836D(M)
2- G luxon 100uf/16v/5x11.5/2.5 835D(M)
7-G luxon 470uf/10v/6.3x11/2.5 828D(M)
These are pretty small as well, so I'm not sure if I grabbed the right numbers off of them. I can't seem to find anything on them.

1- Chemi-con 470uf/16v/8x11.5/3.5 KZG 1140 ripple

So, how badly am I making this more difficult than necessary? Thanks a ton for all the help and and extra thanks to momaka for taking the time to post links to caps.

So...in light of the "new", better information, will the links I posted be ok to use still? AND, am I misidentifying the Gluxon caps?

[c_hegge]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

http://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nich...fsgXLSihwsk%3d would be a better option for the 1000uF 16V caps.

I would also swap that KZG for this - http://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nich...TKeRiMIpakY%3d

[3v0]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

ok, i took the motherboard out again a couple of weeks ago and got some more information but i'm lost on a couple. This is the revised list of what i have, and the proposed replacements:

15 - tk 1800uf/6.3v/8x20/3.5 atwb 2100 ripple
http://www.mouser.com/search/product...7-re50e821mdn1

7 -tk 1000uf/6.3v/8x11.5/3.5 atwy 1140 ripple (i could not find 1000uf caps in the puallinebarger.net archives. Only 680/820 but both had ripple ratings of 1140)
http://www.mouser.com/search/product...7-uhm0j102mpd3

2 - 10uf/16v/4x5/1.5 89jk? I originally thought these were tk but they are so small i can't say. It looks like that have 88jk/89jk stamped in the top of the cap. Since i can't id, i can't go any further at the moment.

5 - tk 1000uf/16v/8x20/3.5 atwb (can't find specs, only goes to 10v. I thought i had mistakenly id'd as "atwb" but a double check says otherwise)
http://mouser.com/productdetail/nich...fsgxlsihwsk%3d

9-g luxon 100uf/16v/6.3x5/2.5 836d(m)
2- g luxon 100uf/16v/5x11.5/2.5 835d(m)
7-g luxon 470uf/10v/6.3x11/2.5 828d(m)
these are pretty small as well, so i'm not sure if i grabbed the right numbers off of them. I can't seem to find anything on them.

1- chemi-con 470uf/16v/8x11.5/3.5 kzg 1140 ripple
http://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pana...xq%2fqBZ30o%3d
so, how badly am i making this more difficult than necessary? Thanks a ton for all the help and and extra thanks to momaka for taking the time to post links to caps.

So...in light of the "new", better information, will the links i posted be ok to use still? And, am i misidentifying the gluxon caps?

Thanks! Edited per suggestion on the 1000uf caps. The cap you suggested for the KZG has a minimum order of 200.

[c_hegge]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Whoops. I didn't notice that. Try Panny FM, then (http://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pana...xq%2fqBZ30o%3d). They are a bit taller, but the electrical specs are close enough.

[3v0]

Re: ID caps on msi mobo with schematic?

Thanks again. I'm getting there slowly but surely. Luckily it's been cold in here so I haven't been crashing much at all, but I need to get this pc and the xbox done so I won't have to worry about it.

Any thoughts on the gluxons? Did I grab the wrong numbers off of them?