e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

[tjmethod]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

Well I forwarded the message to disconnect all the cables LVDS and locking flex cables from and to the panel and they say they did. They said it still has half a screen and that this happened once they cut the driver flex tabs. If tiny parts of these tabs left on the panel, could that cause that half of the screen to go out and if so how would you suggest I tell them to remove the rest? Can they be cleaned off with alcohol, laquerer thinner or acetone? This all happened because I think they thought they were being safe by only removing the boards in the beginning then putting it all back together pushing the driver tabs down making them hard to get at. I looked at the ones I removed and it looks like they are glued on with about a 1/6" strip of gray glue. If no the only thing I can think of is scraping with the edge of a razor blade? I wish I was there but I am 2000 miles away. I believe this panel is perfectly fine...

[tjmethod]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

1/16"

[budwich]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

I think you might have a problem. It would appear that they may have removed more than expected. I am not sure of what appears to be the plastic "termination" of some sort. My sony did not have this. Hopefully, freakaftr8 will recognize what that is.

[tjmethod]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

Hmm...you think so- I remember when I peeled mine away, I recall them peeling right off and trying to remember I dont think there was anymore flex tab that could be cut away- so you are saying there could be? I honestly don't remember but if there was and they did cut into that- that is the cause of that half the screen going out?

[budwich]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

oops... I see that is glue as opposed to plastic. I think another person had some issue with removal such that some "stuff" was left behind. In that case, some very very careful "surgery" removed the rest but I am not sure whether is was mechanical (ie. scraping) or solvent (ie. alcohol / contact cleaner).

[tjmethod]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

You dont happen to remember if their issue was the t-con and half that side went out? I am just wondering if he over cut the flex tab- would that cause that half the screen to go out or having some bits of the flex still not removed would cause half that screen going out- what do you think?

[budwich]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

in the case I seem to remember, the horizontal line was still visibile in an otherwise prefect picture. Iirc, he pulled the tab cables from the contact points and during that operation, some portions of the cable remained behind.

To me, your picture looks too much like a totally disconnected tcon cable on that side. Are these people using their glasses to ensure that the cables are installed correctly... :-))))))

get them to send you pictures of the tcon cables connections for that side along with corner cable maybe... should be also not there (ie. removed... but shouldn't matter).

[SportsterPaul]

Re: E701i-A3 no picture but backlights

Man this is some awesome work. It is a privilege to watch this unfold, and to see how you folks have figured it out, and then made a fix. I salute you all.

I just got a refurbished E701i-A3 from Fry's Electronics in California. It had sound but no picture the moment it went to a broadcast channel, but the menu system worked. I did a factory reset, went through the prompts and it worked for about a week. Now its the classic symptom-- sound but no picture, no menu, no nothing on the screen. Back-lights are coming on then dimming a bit after a few seconds.

I wrote Vizio support, they said to call. I call and they tell me tough luck, they don't cover refurbs, its Fry's problem. I just wrote Fry's an email linking to this thread and asking for my money back. Next step is certified letters, boy that usually works.

I don't want to own this TV, but I can add some facts, as I used to be a chip engineer in Silicon Valley. The driver chips that are failing are the row drivers. The reason that Vizio puts them on both sides of the screen is to improve the response time. The row drivers have a capacitive load from all the pixel gates they drive on the panel. That capacitance slows down the response. So by driving the row from both sides, Vizio can double the speed that the gates turn on.

Row drivers are a "jellybean" part. They are super-cheap, and pretty easy to make, since they are just a bunch of CMOS switches. There is no analog to them, unlike the column drivers. Row drivers just turn on and turn off. When I was in Silicon Valley, even the Taiwanese companies wanted to get out of row drivers, since the parts were so cheap. I assume they are made in Red China now.

So Sharp shopped price, and I wonder if they are happy with these cheap parts. The chip company, barely competent, had some process variations, didn't do proper testing, and made a whole batch of row drivers that burned up.

OK, poor Sharp. Then they sell panels to Vizio. OK, poor Vizio, other than one thing-- there is no reason a well-designed TV should blow up T-con (timing control) boards just because the row drivers have shorted out. What Vizio did was "Muntz" the TV. Its named after con man Earl "Madman" Muntz. He sold TVs of his own design. He would walk up to the working prototype, and use side-cutters to snip out components. If the TV still worked, he told the engineers they didn't need that component. Many of these circuits were protection circuits, so if the flyback went out, it did not take out 4 other components. Muntz TVs would cascade failures just like this Vizio does.

I guarantee you a middle manager at Vizio said they didn't need any over-current protection the T-Con board. I guarantee you a meek quiet passive engineer objected, saying that a driver IC short would burn up the FET on the T-con board. Then the middle manager pounds the table and exclaims "That's a million-to-one!" Thing is, when you put dozens of driver ICs into millions of televisions, it is a sure thing.

Japanese companies don't do incoming inspection since no Japanese company would shame themselves by shipping junk to a vendor. So Japanese Sharp trusted the Red Chinese company and got screwed. Then Sharp went on to screw Vizio, an American company, who added their own incompetence by letting the bad Sharp panels take out the T-con board.

What a mess. I think all three companies share fault. The Commie chip company since they had no process control or testing and shipped junk. Sharp because they trusted some Commie low-price buffoons and shipped junk of their own. Vizio because they Muntzed the TV, and now won't man-up and just replace the one I have with a known-good TV.

In engineering there is a "rule of 5" for product failure. It costs 5 times as much to fix a bad IC as it does to catch it on the wafer. It costs 5 times over that to catch it on the driver ribbon. Then 5 times more to fix it once it is on the driver board. Then 5 times that once the driver board is bonded to the LCD panel. Then 5 times that once the panel is put in a TV, and finally 5 times that once the TV is shipped to poor me, the guy with a sad sad Christmas.

If Vizio, Sharp, and those Commies did not know that before, they sure know it now.

[budwich]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

great added "value" on this adventure. I hope you get something. My neighbor who had a sharp that we "saved" in another early thread got sharp to at least pony up some money so hopefully visio will do something but based on the tom's guide forum I posted a bit back, with thousands of readers of that thread, there are likely a "few" that wish sharp/visio/sony would have spent a "dime or two" more on some better "chips"... :-)

[SportsterPaul]

Re: E701i-A3 no picture but backlights

I am not worried about the cost since I can just cancel the credit card payment. I used to live where Fry's is, so they are known for taking stuff back. I suspect it might be some hassle, but sooner or later they will send a truck, especially if I cancel the payment. I feel blessed it happened so soon, and doubly blessed that guys like you and "da freak" figured it out. Double kudos for your patience walking non-technical people through the fix.

I was going to use this TV as a computer monitor, and then buy a Sharp Q+ model as the TV for videos and such. I figured I have to buy two different brands so the remotes don't interact. My Samsung 46" TV remote used to change the 24-inch Samsung monitor I had in the same room.

So now I figure to buy a Sharp LC-70SQ15U, since I need the VGA, and then buy something else for the TV. Lots more money though, but the Sharps still have new production in the field.

Do we all agree that when they work, these 70-inch Vizios are awesome? My biggest complaint is they make prime-time TV shows look like soap operas, a little fakey. I will keep checking this thread out, and let you know what Fry's does for me. I am tempted to send this thread to Vizio, and ask what they intend to do.

[budwich]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

Hey sportsterpaul...
in your post, you bring up the "response issue". I was wondering what these "saved panels" owners might now see during their use. In my neighbor's case, he isn't "pushing" the panel with any thing... basically using it as a "120hz" unit but there are options in the menu to choose a few "speeds". I guess my question is will a user see significant "ghosting" of fast action events on a "saved" set? or was the "extra drivers" only basically helping the higher "stuff" (iirc "sharp aquos 240 / 400 something").... what's your take on this?

[SportsterPaul]

Re: E701i-A3 no picture but backlights

The people I see worry about response time are the PC gamers. It certainly matters when you go faster than 60p, but I suspect most of us would not be able to see anything.

My buddy's dad was a TV engineer, and my buddy can see every little artifact and tiny little thing in a video. Its hell watching anything with him, he does not care about the movie, but the 29.9 drop-frame 4:2:2 yuv rgb blah blah blah.

I am not a video expert, just a retired chip guy and for analog chips at that, not these row drivers. When you and "da freak" say it looks good as new, I believe you. I can't imagine that response time will have much effect on any normal viewing.

I have another Silicon Valley pal that used to work for Zenith. He laughed when people would talk about 64,000 colors. He said research Zenith did showed the average guy had trouble seeing 5% different.

I am sure there will be guys that use your fix and sell the TV, and I don't think that is particularity un-ethical-- it really is a brilliant fix you came up with.

BTW, it was the Tom's forum that sent me over here. I have written articles about how often capacitors fail, so this is just the coolest site to me.

[freakaftr8]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

Well so awesome you know about the old boob tube style TV. I work on those is a hobby also I repair a lots of RCA and Magnavox in a few Muntz old round screen color TV Council units also. Its funny how Muntz decided to copy an RCA and GE and produce their own equipment. I have seen one with blown out fly back and it's not pretty at almost looks like what the old Magnavox's used to do. Nothing like the nice smell of burned rubber filling a house.

I admire your outlook on how these TVs are manufactured and I agree with you 100%. It's just unbelievable that not only Vizio decided to use this panel on their TV also you have sharp and Sony as well. The sharp manages to shut down with a overcurrent protection trip circuit and so does sony which alleviates damaging the tcon board but Vizio as you said no such luck and this has part to do with not the t-con board as a prime source of the problem but the main board does not recognize an overload from the 12 volt output source to the TKE on board so it doesn't care it just produces as much power in current is it can to keep the t-con happy as a panel is shorting out until eminent doom. The tcon board between the Vizio and the Sony are almost identical except the Sony uses 3d technology and I don't know how the LCD panel interprets a 3d signal but I do know it seems like it changes frequency although it's still working fine on the Sony

[SportsterPaul]

Re: E701i-A3 no picture but backlights

Well Freak, its not that I am awesome, its that I am old. When I was a kid I was pulling a tube from our TV set, got my fingers down too low by the pins, and the shock launched me across the cocktail table to land on couch.

What is awesome is how you figured this out, and even more so the courage it must have taken to rip those first ribbon cables off the panel. Talk about the land of no return.

Ha! So you have even worked on Muntz TVs. Now really blow me away and tell me you have a Philco Predicta in the den. I was going to get one, only my friend's wife has started calling all our cool stuff "volume absorbers" so I think I will resist.

As to the Vizio failure, yeah, I suspect Vizio is in typical modern management mode-- sweep it under the rug and forget about it. I think your blog posts will teach them a bit about PR in the age of social media. As to Sharp, I have much less of an issue with them. I have been to Osaka, and visited the Sharp folks when I was a chip engineer. They are a fine bunch of people and I am sure they are truly ashamed of building these bad panels.

I guarantee you there is some Sharp manager that considered suicide over this mess. I would tell him "Don't sweat it dude, just man up and fix it." I note that just in the last month or so, Sharp seems to be dropping reference to the 70-inch panels. The LC-70LE ones are what I suspect are the same as in the Vizio. They used to have charts on the Amazon listing showing all the LE models, and now I can't find them. Those charts were only way I could figure out what Sharp sold, their website is, well, yet another useless consumer products website. Thankfully I pasted one into an email to pals a month ago. Lets see if I can drop the table in here:
Nahh, no in-line HTML, OK, maybe an image of the table: Nahh, no native image hosting. OK, maybe a text table: Nahh, won't line up, OK, maybe a text table wrapped by the code tag:

+----------------+---------------+-------------------------------+---------------+---------------+
|        | AQUOS     | AQUOS Q+ Series        | AQUOS     | AQUOS     |
|        | 4K Series   |                | Q Series   | HD Series   |
+----------------+---------------+-------------------------------+---------------+---------------+
| Models     | LC-70UD1U   | LC-60UQ17U  | LC-60SQ15U  | LC-60EQ10U  | LC-60LE650U  |
|        |        | LC-70UQ17U  | LC-70SQ15U  | LC-70EQ10U  | LC-70LE650U  |
|        |        | LC-80UQ17U  |        |        | LC-80LE650U  |
|        |        |        |        |        | LC-90LE657U  |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Sizes (inches) | 70      | 60-70-80   | 60-70     | 60-70     | 60-70-80-90  |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Backlight   | AQUOS     | AQUOS     | AQUOS     | AQUOS     | AQUOS     |
| Type Source  | LED Display  | LED Display  | LED Display  | LED Display  | LED Display  |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Panel     | 3840 x 2160, | 1920 x 1080, | 1920 x 1080, | 1920 x 1080, | 1920 x 1080, |
| Resolution   | Ultra HD   | Full HD    | Full HD    | Full HD    | Full HD    |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Effective   | 3840 x 2160, | Up to     | Up to     | 1920 x 1080, | 1920 x 1080, |
| Resolution   | Ultra HD   | 3840 x 2160  | 3840 x 2160  | Full HD    | Full HD    |
|        |        | Ultra HD   | Ultra HD   |        |        |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Q+       |        | Y       | Y       |        |        |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Quattron    |        | Y       | Y       | Y       |        |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Dynamic    | 10,000,000:1 | 12,000,000:1 | 8,000,000:1  | 8,000,000:1  | 4,000,000:1  |
| Contrast    |        |        |        |        | (90”     |
| Ratio     |        |        |        |        | 8,000,000:1) |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Refresh Rate  | 120Hz     | 240 Hz    | 240Hz     | 240Hz     | 120Hz     |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| THX      | THX      | THX      |        |        |        |
|        | 4K Certified | Certified   |        |        |        |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| 4K Content   | Y       | Y       | Y       |        |        |
| Playback    |        |        |        |        |        |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| SmartCentral  | Y       | Y       | Y       | Y       | Y       |
| Smart TV    |        |        |        |        |        |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Wi-Fi     | Y       | Y       | Y       | Y       | Y       |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| HDMI      | 4       | 4       | 4       | 4       | 4       |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+
| Bezel     | Ultra-thin  | Ultra-thin  | Ultra-thin  | Ultra-thin  | Ultra-thin  |
|        | dark silver  | silver    | black bezel  | black bezel  | black bezel  |
|        | aluminum   | aluminum   |        |        |        |
|        | bezel     | bezel     |        |        |        |
+----------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+---------------+

Ahh, that's the ticket. These are slightly older models. The UD1 angered people since it doesn't have HDMI2 to feed the 4K at 60p rates. Me, I need VGA since I am using two TVs to be video monitors. I figured to get the Vizio 70 and a Sharp 70, so the remotes do not interact. Now I am stuck. No Vizio ever again, since they blew me off. Sony 70-inchers with VGA are old stock, and probably made with the same bad Sharp panels. It looks like Black Friday 2013 was when all these bad 70-inch panels hit the shelves. My Vizio refurb is probably one of those.

To show I really have no hard feeling about Sharp, the current plan is to buy two Sharps, maybe the UD1 and an SQ. I want recent production, but with VGA. I figure the 4K and the Q+ models will not have the same row driver ICs. I will deal with the interacting remotes with Bluetooth remotes, or RF remotes, or the best idea I have ever seen-- put passive 3D eyeglass polarizers in front of the TV IR receivers, and one over the remote, and then you just pivot the remote 90 degrees to control the TV you want.

Freak, I wish I could have been there when you did this. Was your wife hovering over your shoulder saying "I don't know about this Freak." Did you reassure her: "Nah honey, its going to be alright, really." And after you pealed those ribbons off and powered the TV, did you both jump around the room like NBA stars, having pulled off the coolest fix in modern time? Dude, you are saving people thousands of dollars at a crack. This is one for the history books. Oh, another tip for those FETs that fail-- check out DigiKey.

[budwich]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

I am wondering if the vizio M series sets suffer the same potential fate. They are a bit newer so warrantees are probably still applicable (potentially) so not sure how many would have attempted to do anything with those sets in terms of "saves".

[freakaftr8]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

actually this TV I picked up for about 200 bucks I figured what the heck I have nothing to lose you set for 200 bucks so I just gave it a shot. Of course this is after I've researched and realize that there was no other alternative. Another member on here was talking about doing the same thing right Before I realized what he was talking about. So looks like we're on the same wavelengths at the same time lol.

I also have to hand it to Sharp, they do make some pretty nice TVs and seems to be the lowest in the line of reputation of reliability and what I mean by that they seem to be the brand with the least amount of problems except for this error on their part. I Also see some come through it problems with the LED backlighting but that seems to be a general problem with all LED TVs

[SportsterPaul]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

budwich, I suspect the Vizio M series are fine, they are a later model, and probably use different chips for row drivers. My problem is they don't have VGA, which I need to make the TV a computer monitor.

freakaftr8, when I lived in Silicon Valley, 200 bucks was nothing. Now I am in a Florida retirement community and 200 bucks is a fortune. Great work figuring this out to you, budwich, and the whole cadre of folks on this forum and the Tom's Hardware forum that sent me here. I am glad you think Sharp is an OK TV, I still plan to buy two of them.

Get this, I mailed Fry's Electronics a contact form, and sales associate Kristy A. responded, and said to call their customer service and press "2" at the menu. The email had a case number. I call and get Wayne, and he really is friendly like Kristy said they all are. He not only takes the TV back, but he tells me they don't want me to pay for the reverse shipping. He said within 30 days and its no questions asked. I asked why there is no restocking fee. He says they only have to do that if there is no original packaging, and that's only because the manufacturers stick them with the fee, which they have to pass along. He said they might charge reverse shipping if there was nothing wrong with the TV and I just changed my mind, but maybe not even then. He told me he made sure the order number, the case number, the RMA and his manager's approval were all in the system, so "there is a paper trail." He did not pressure me in the least to do an exchange, or to take a store credit. I get my card credited when they have the TV back in their possession-- that seems fair to me. Gosh, Fry's lowered my blood pressure 20 points. Oh, and all this is at 1:30 PM PST on Christmas Eve.

What was really interesting is that Wayne insisted that this Vizio was a factory refurb and Vizio should have stood by it. I told him what Vizio told me-- "we don't do refurbs, its Fry's problem," Wayne at Fry's said "We're a retailer, not a repair shop, we don't do refurbs." I tend to believe Wayne, since the box the TV came in says "Recertified" and "90-day warranty" right next to the giant Vizio logo. It sure implies this was a factory refurb. Wayne from Fry's figured that they were just trying to pass it off to Fry's since it was within the 30 days.

Vizio lost a customer, forever. I wanted them to say, "We are sorry you got stuck with this defective TV. We have used TVs here with known-good chips and T-con boards. We can exchange your TV for this one." Heck, I would have even ponied up a hundred bucks to pay for their shipping. Instead, they hide behind the skirts of the retailer. I am off to Fry's website to shop for two TVs.

Happy new year to you all.

[MEM1971]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

Thought my mosfets would of come in by now. Could not get my Samsung going and really hoping can get this vizio going. will let yall know

[MEM1971]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

I ordered 5 from Digi=key.


5 RTR020N05TLCT-ND MOSFET N-CH 45V 2A TSMT3 5
Immediate 0
0.78000 $3.90

[death69inc]

Re: e701i-a3 no picture but backlights

I am wondering if the vizio M series sets suffer the same potential fate. They are a bit newer so warrantees are probably still applicable (potentially) so not sure how many would have attempted to do anything with those sets in terms of "saves".

m701d-a3 seem to be having all sorts of issues I have one that comes on wigs out on visio screen then black screens ... not sure what I'm goin to do with it yet lol