Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

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  • tom66
    EVs Rule
    • Apr 2011
    • 32560
    • UK

    #1

    Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

    A freebie 32" LCD here. HITACHI brand, but a rebadge Vestel junker by Argos (who are better described by a four letter word beginning with "s".)

    17PW25-4 which is dead, no standby, no run power.

    Blown mains fuse, primary MOSFET and assoc. components. Also has a shorted diode on the output side (which is what blows the FET in the first place.)

    These power supplies are terrible! But the design is so poor, nothing you can really do to fix it, only make it as good as possible.

    Because Vestel do not match the output diodes, failure is common.

    They probably put all the diodes into a bin, with those pre-turned leads, then pick them randomly!! No lot assignment or matching! This of course does not match them anywhere close to each other... and 7 of them are all in parallel. ARGH.

    I measured them, readings were: 443, 444, 443, 460, 433, 438, and 000 (shorted.) Readings mV.

    Now, what can be seen here - obviously the shorted one is failed, but it can be also seen that the diode reading 460mV was probably taking close to none of the load (because diodes have an exponential I-V curve, a small change in forward voltage will lead to a large change in current), and the majority of the load was probably taken by the one which shorted, failing that it would have then been split between the 433 and 438 diodes. The rest probably didn't take anywhere near a significant portion.

    Terrible design! And don't forget about the -2.1mV/degC variation for diodes. That's negative, so as it gets hotter, the forward voltage drops further causing more current and more heat, a rapidly destructive cycle.

    This is the 24V, 5.5A backlight rail, but these diodes experience ripple current of around 2X~3X due to it using a flyback topology. No idea how they snuck a 150W flyback past the EMC guys...!

    What can be done? I think the best I can do (as VESTEL love putting crappy UF5402 in parallel) is to match them before install by choosing diodes within +/-2mV and also by using some thermal epoxy to closely match these devices.

    This isn't even going into the other issues these supplies have, such as the wildly unstable control loop (1.5Vp-p output ripple on 24V when backlight is at 50%, due to poor compensation and increasing capacitor ESR) and the noisy buzzing they make when operating at certain brightnesses (related to the backlight level.) Plus the odd standby controller fault due to pulling about 15W from the 5V standby rail with no heatsink on the standby IC (when operating...)



    /rant over
    Last edited by tom66; 03-04-2014, 04:40 PM.
    Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
    For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.
  • vinceroger69
    Badcaps Legend
    • Mar 2012
    • 6714
    • uk

    #2
    Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

    tom when you mention and also by using some thermal epoxy to closely match these devices what does that mean? in basic terms cheers.As a few parts have gone on this board is it still fixable or is a second hand psu cheaper ive never worked on one of these yet do any surface mount parts go faulty with this type of fault which you have.

    Comment

    • tom66
      EVs Rule
      • Apr 2011
      • 32560
      • UK

      #3
      Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

      Epoxy, basically thermal epoxy conducts heat so essentially you're attempting to keep the diodes at the same temperature so they match up properly, this will reduce but not totally eliminate the failure due to poorly matched diodes.

      Most of the parts that go bad on these are SMD on the bottom of the board, but not too hard to do really.

      I usually repair these at the component level, I've done it before. Parts from Farnell and eBay cost around £8 total.

      Second hand PSU. You can actually get a new one -- can be had for £35
      http://sparedparts.com/parts/details...board-23019609

      but be aware not all 17PW25-4 are interchangeable, there are at least 5 variants with same part #, so you should check all pin out and capacitors etc. On some of these there's an SMD jumper connecting 5V and 3.3V standby which may or may not need to be present. (On a 32" Alba it was, on a Toshiba and Hitachi it wasn't.) Some have 24V AUDIO separate, others use 12V for audio. Argh!
      Last edited by tom66; 03-04-2014, 05:04 PM.
      Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
      For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

      Comment

      • vinceroger69
        Badcaps Legend
        • Mar 2012
        • 6714
        • uk

        #4
        Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

        thanks tom i understand better now. theres not much at all free going about in my area at the minute had naff of freecycle/gumtree for ages im just taking time to read some of your training manuals for plasmas etc trying to understand them the more i watch my panasonic one the more i like it haha a great picture imo touch wood seems to be working 100% well still even that blue line has never come back.

        Comment

        • tom66
          EVs Rule
          • Apr 2011
          • 32560
          • UK

          #5
          Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

          Did you read off the hour counter on yours? I have one PZ80 with 3500 hours, another with 8000 hours. I sold the one which had nearly 14000 hours. I love those PZ80 Panasonics. Great picture, really reliable. And the PZ70s, though some have panel vertical line issues and buffer issues, it usually only affected earlier models.

          No luck with freecycle myself either, this was off a friend of a friend.
          Last edited by tom66; 03-04-2014, 05:12 PM.
          Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
          For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

          Comment

          • vinceroger69
            Badcaps Legend
            • Mar 2012
            • 6714
            • uk

            #6
            Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

            no didnt to be honest i will in the morning and yes freecycle and gumtree seems to of dried up theres a lot of people on facebook/gumtree/preloved offering cash for non working ones.

            Comment

            • tom66
              EVs Rule
              • Apr 2011
              • 32560
              • UK

              #7
              Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

              Board repaired but 5V standby is jumpy. Vcc cap voltage unstable. Controller is just pulsing output. Ruled out basically everything except controller IC, I will try that tomorrow. I have a board to borrow bits from, but it's in unknown condition.
              Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
              For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

              Comment

              • 3587davidp
                New Member
                • Feb 2014
                • 1
                • uk

                #8
                Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                Hi I am new to the forum, and this is my first message or post, I have a Alba LCD3297HD TV with the Vestel 17PW25-4 Power supply board and on the 12v rail I am getting 17v which when the tv is switched on, the voltage slowly ramps up to 17v, I have checked the caps for Bulging, Leakage, but they look fine, The tv switches on from stby red led flashes 13 times backlights come on, sound is good, tuner seems good(finds channels when retuned) the problem with the TV is the picture is blurry, red and very very slow to appear also I have shadowing or ghosting from previous channels, when I enter the menu it takes an age to appear and disappear just like it is a cap fault, please could you help me with this problem

                Comment

                • tom66
                  EVs Rule
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 32560
                  • UK

                  #9
                  Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                  Are you using the DC or AC range? Does the 24V measure ~24V?
                  Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                  For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                  Comment

                  • Alastair E
                    Chief Womble
                    • Mar 2013
                    • 1963
                    • U.K.

                    #10
                    Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                    Oooh Tom,--You're great when you're angry--Go get 'em Tiger!

                    IF you saw as many bloody stuffed-up Vestels as me a week, it would send you into a blue-funk of depression you'll never recover from--As for me, I just keep taking the pills!

                    At least I get to jump on 'em before chucking them in the skip--Most satisfying!

                    I just cannot believe how they get away with some of the crap they make,--it really IS RUBBISH even when brand-new and functioning!

                    What amazes me even more--is makers like Hitachi, Sanyo and JVC put their names to the same shit thats in a Tesco's special Techni-crap-ica.

                    As to DavidP issue, the PSU 12V rail varying I think is unrelated to the fault (although probably caused it originally)--Ive had the panel/t-con cause weirdness like that--On an Hitachi Vestel, 32"
                    TELEFIX

                    How PLASMA SCREENS WORK, X-SUS and Y-SUS what they do--
                    http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-1088.pdf
                    PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL ME PRIVATELY FOR REPAIR ADVICE. QUESTIONS BELONG ON THE FORUM!

                    Comment

                    • tom66
                      EVs Rule
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 32560
                      • UK

                      #11
                      Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                      Don't worry, I've done that before on an old 17PW20. I ended up replacing it, so had a surplus power supply. It was rather fun to destroy the old one with a sledgehammer. It's AMAZING how much stress that relieves.
                      Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                      For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                      Comment

                      • crnisale
                        New Member
                        • Jun 2012
                        • 2
                        • Serbia

                        #12
                        Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                        PSU test stby.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                        • brianbelfast
                          Member
                          • Jun 2010
                          • 29
                          • Northern Ireland

                          #13
                          Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                          I'm fighting with one of these at the moment. (17pw25-4) It's in a 32" vestel disguised as a Toshiba. All the supply lines are present and near enough correct according to the voltmeter but when you look at them on the scope they are noisy and spiky as hell so the set won't fire up. Just a flashing standby light. There is a lot of noise (the type you can hear) coming from in and around t900. Last time I had this problem I was lucky enough to have a 17pw26 on the shelf but I'm no so lucky this time. I've done the usual diode checks and cap replacements but no go. Any ideas guys ? This is one I'd really like to get to the bottom of.

                          Comment

                          • tom66
                            EVs Rule
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 32560
                            • UK

                            #14
                            Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                            Originally posted by brianbelfast
                            I'm fighting with one of these at the moment. (17pw25-4) It's in a 32" vestel disguised as a Toshiba. All the supply lines are present and near enough correct according to the voltmeter but when you look at them on the scope they are noisy and spiky as hell so the set won't fire up. Just a flashing standby light. There is a lot of noise (the type you can hear) coming from in and around t900. Last time I had this problem I was lucky enough to have a 17pw26 on the shelf but I'm no so lucky this time. I've done the usual diode checks and cap replacements but no go. Any ideas guys ? This is one I'd really like to get to the bottom of.
                            Check the protection circuit. Also, how much ripple? Over 1Vp-p? At what frequency?
                            Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
                            For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

                            Comment

                            • brianbelfast
                              Member
                              • Jun 2010
                              • 29
                              • Northern Ireland

                              #15
                              Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                              Oh this is way more than ripple. Serious spiky noise. Way more than 1v peak to peak. I'll have another look at it later today and be more exact. Maybe take a photo of the scope reading for you. I'm not familiar with this psi so I am a bit lost, But if two of them have come in with the same fault in as many weeks it's about time I got to grips with them. Thanks for getting back.

                              Comment

                              • brianbelfast
                                Member
                                • Jun 2010
                                • 29
                                • Northern Ireland

                                #16
                                Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                                Update - As luck would have it I came across a 32" Technika screen smash at my local recycling centre just yesterday. Absolutely soaking wet with rain but it had a perfectly working 17pw26-4 so I'm sorted out. The Tosh is back up and running.

                                However I'd still like to master these 25-4 atrocities. I don't like to be beaten.

                                Comment

                                • Amjama
                                  Member
                                  • Jun 2015
                                  • 24
                                  • England

                                  #17
                                  Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                                  Hi all,
                                  After few days of reading.... Badcaps became mybadcaps... Love this forum ...

                                  I have been reading threads regarding the 17pw25-4. This power supply have the usual blown up q935, burned r977 and a lot of short or open circuit diodes, d931, ext. I am willing to give it a go and repair the psu. However most of the surface mount underneath q935 are abit burned out. By the way this psu came from a hitachi 32inch tv ( no power). After reading a lot of positive discussions especially from tom66. I know tom66 you said most psu board are different although is the same part number, how to I get hold of the part numbers of the surface mount components and q935.

                                  Some threads also discusses that most of the 17pw25-4 are not interchangeable... Ok how do I know when one is? Thanks in advance

                                  Comment

                                  • Amjama
                                    Member
                                    • Jun 2015
                                    • 24
                                    • England

                                    #18
                                    Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                                    Hi,

                                    Me again.. I have attached a picture of the back of the 17pw25-4 pcu. Could anyone please provide me with a list of the part list for those surface mount components (that looks damaged)? And what do you think would be easier to repair (with those common psu failure) or perhaps buy a "similar" 17pw25-4 from eBay. Thanks

                                    Any feedback would be appreciated.
                                    Attached Files

                                    Comment

                                    • ReeceyBurger123
                                      Never Give Up !
                                      • May 2014
                                      • 7325
                                      • Britain

                                      #19
                                      Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                                      Originally posted by Amjama
                                      Hi,

                                      Me again.. I have attached a picture of the back of the 17pw25-4 pcu. Could anyone please provide me with a list of the part list for those surface mount components (that looks damaged)? And what do you think would be easier to repair (with those common psu failure) or perhaps buy a "similar" 17pw25-4 from eBay. Thanks

                                      Any feedback would be appreciated.
                                      Look up a 17pw25-4 repair kit on ebay it has all of the parts that are picture that have blown, looks pike the pfc chip has blew due to a bad diode on the out put.
                                      Please Do Not PM My Page Asking For Help Badcaps Is The Place For Advise, Page Linked For Business Reasons Only. Anyone Doing So Will Be Banned Instantly !

                                      https://www.facebook.com/Telford-Tel...7894576335359/

                                      Comment

                                      • Amjama
                                        Member
                                        • Jun 2015
                                        • 24
                                        • England

                                        #20
                                        Re: Sigh, another dead VESTEL 17PW25-4

                                        Originally posted by ReeceyBurger123
                                        Look up a 17pw25-4 repair kit on ebay it has all of the parts that are picture that have blown, looks pike the pfc chip has blew due to a bad diode on the out put.
                                        Thanks but unfortunately I can't find the one I am after. The only one left is the ic800 one. Any other ideas?

                                        Comment

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