Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

[kc8adu]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

wow a lot of "discussion" about a simple power supply for an antique.
i built systems like that when they were new and loaded with more stuff.and they lived long reliable lives on a max of a 300w psu.
mind you these were high quality units and not bargain basement junk that came in the case.
saw bestec as a recommended brand.
just avoid the atx250-12e.
any others you find will need recapping.
this is true of even the better brands.

[vinceroger69]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

Hmm,
i was notified that somebody may be talking shit about me, but cant find any?

The only thing i saw mentioned stj about you was this what jiroy had quoted:

I don't know if you want to try your luck again , maybe you'll find the wrong answer , but just in case you didn't , i'll leave it to any Electronic professional here .. Till now , i think a true professional like stj is one of the few capable ...

[stj]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

Hmm,
i was notified that somebody may be talking shit about me, but cant find any?

[Topcat]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

I just cleaned up 2.5 pages of all this gibberish....I dont want to do it again. Keep the personal attacks and nonsense out of tech threads.

[jiroy]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

So please tell us then which version of the Pioneer spec that show the published spec of 27W is applied to? There is no version shown in the spec sheet.
Show us the sticker on YOUR PIONEER since you claim you have the unit in your hand!

Don't you know how to quote ? , And yet , you dare to talk and accuse others of ignorance .

Go edit the post first of all , if you care about site's image , looool ...

[budm]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

"Please do not add more mistakes to your initial mistakes , cause , by your answer , you failed a simple test and gave me a big relief that you're not on the level to judge anything about mine ..

I don't know if you want to try your luck again , maybe you'll find the wrong answer , but just in case you didn't , i'll leave it to any Electronic professional here .. Till now , i think a true professional like stj is one of the few capable ...

The DVD , first of all is within my reach and it clearly states 2A at 12volts , but maybe you don't know that every company has something called revision 1.0 or 2.0 , but whom am i to teach you , lol ..."

So please tell us then which version of the Pioneer spec that show the published spec of 27W is applied to? There is no version shown in the spec sheet.
Show us the sticker on YOUR PIONEER since you claim you have the unit in your hand!

[budm]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

Oh really ? , Who cares if the shorted is shorted and the open is open and the working is working ? ...

Show me where you wrote it's working ? , Or probably you were leaving it a Christmas egg or a Santa Claus gift !!, lol ..

Ooops , your last line will be a first competitor for the most successful quote in the 21st century , loool ..The poor asking for help should read two answers to guess what's going on !! Yeah ... right , lol ..

Well it is not need to repeat the answer of 0.26 Ohms when the correct answer is already given, and as I already indicated if it is bad it will show OPEN CIRCUIT! the OP is not as stupid as you, you can ask the OP to see if he understands the given answers (2) or not.. How many answers did you give to OP of this thread so far about the power supply? You are such and idiot, look at your own replies. Two replies to solve the problem is nothing, sometime it take may be many many posts to get to solve the problem due to error in data given by OP, https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57871
STJ will have good laugh when he sees how you add the Amp of the two power supplies together to get total current draw.

[jiroy]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

jiroy: Scroll back up to my previous post, see how I quote you saying 3.6A
That is wrong, and I explain why in my post before that.
So please now enlighten me how I'm wrong and 12v 2A & 5v 1.6A really is 3.6A like you said.

Well , you can see it as you like it , i really don't care , since i know clever people would understand that was the sum of different voltages and since the sum was given as 27 watts , so there was no need to repeat it like 20 times in each lines .. I'm here supposed writing to intelligent people not stooges ...

From now on , and maybe i'll make it my quote , what i write is specifically written for clever people , not for wannabees and stooges ..

The fact that Pioneer writes 27w in the datasheet comes down to testing the actual power consumption.
A drive will never use all the power on both 5v and 12v simultaneously.
But who am I kidding, you can't even read the label on the drive itself to begin with, it clearly states 2.2A

Please do not add more mistakes to your initial mistakes , cause , by your answer , you failed a simple test and gave me a big relief that you're not on the level to judge anything about mine ..

I don't know if you want to try your luck again , maybe you'll find the wrong answer , but just in case you didn't , i'll leave it to any Electronic professional here .. Till now , i think a true professional like stj is one of the few capable ...

The DVD , first of all is within my reach and it clearly states 2A at 12volts , but maybe you don't know that every company has something called revision 1.0 or 2.0 , but whom am i to teach you , lol ...

[momaka]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

I don't really know what are you hinting to here but consider this , i can fairly say that during my life experience , i'm familiar with 99% of brands , i know their pros and cons , so all what you have to do is follow my later posts , since i'm not the type talk to much ..

Ok...

But wait, what's this below then?

Once we had a new brand called "Mercury" , and i thought to be an agent for it as there were no agents in Lebanon . I did a little research and found out it is a Sri lanka based company . Their products are good and very competitive , so why not ? ..
Till now i didn't regret it .

Hmmm... Mercury? Anything related to this, by chance?
http://forums.badcaps.net/forum/show...hlight=mercury
If yes, what can I say... Oh, Deer!

And here is another Mercury-branded PSU, this one looking even more sad than the first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv2RLNkRefE

But I am just going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and ASSUME you didn't sell that particular Mercury brand. Though, the fact that you say that they were based in Sri Lanka and Linuxguru in the first link above mentions India... well, doesn't sound good to me, but what do I know anyways.

BoardX is similar to Mercury , they don't rebrand , it's probably that they are not concentrating on world wide markets like other companies . Typical in world business .

Then why even suggest that PSU brand if it's not available in the O/P's country?

Look dude , i'm not an addicted forumer like you , and when i post , it's because i feel i'm returning a favor for a useful site . I'm basically here to catch rare schematics , as simple as that , and my way of showing gratitude is to help when i can .

Okay, that's fine. I am actually doing the same too. I just post more because I have more free time. But I'm not trying to show off. It's funny that you seem to assume that I am.

so i'll leave you this courtesy of searching for a Boardx schema and pictures ..

Yeah, thanks a lot pal!

First off, even if I did find schematics, it will be useless, because what is shown on the schematics may not correspond to what is inside the PSU. If you have ever looked at one of those schematics on the internet of a typical cheap half-bridge, it looks all fine. Then you take an actual PSU in your hand that is based on that schematic, and all of a sudden you see that half of the filtering components are missing. Why? Because cheap brands do that all the time. So the schematic will tell me nothing!

Second: when *you* make an argument, *you* should back it up with evidence. So if *you* claim that BoardX is a good brand, then *you* show us pictures of it.

No, I'm not asking for an in-depth review/break-down, like I and several other members here typically do. Just a picture with the cover of the PSU removed is enough for us to determine if that BoardX brand is good or not.

Please don't come back and give me the excuse that you don't have time to snap a few pictures of your PSU. If you really didn't have time, you wouldn't have read my long post above, nor would you have replied to all of the other posts in the last two pages. But you DID.

I feel i'm repeating myself here momaka .. I've already said that what momaka needs is a 300 Watts , and what jiroy needs is 600 watts ..

Well, I feel like I am repeating myself too.

But I guess I just can't understand where that 600 Watt requirement comes from. Especially a Pentium II/3 PC.
Do you even know how much 600 Watts of power is? Try stuffing five 100 Watt incandescent light bulbs in a PC case (for 500 Watts of power) and run the case like that for a few hours. Do you know what's going to happen? That case will get mighty-hot, even if you have the cooling fans on.

But okay... I will give you the benefit of the doubt once again. Perhaps because you live in Lebanon and it gets quite hot there in the summer, then perhaps you think that overall it is not a bad idea to get a PSU that is much more powerful than needed. I can understand that thinking.
But still! 600 Watts for a Pentium II/3 PC?? That is just ridiculous man.

Anyway , and to show you that i'm not being negative here , i did a quick calculation based on the specs you gave in your HP , and i then compared them with a professional tool on the net , and both gave a nearly similar result , 383 watts , that , without adding any externals or the Extras i usually have to use ..

Care to share a link of that "Professional tool on the net"?
I ask, because most online PSU calculators I've seen will grossly over-estimate the power consumption. The best I could find were these two:
http://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator
http://www.coolermaster.com/power-supply-calculator/
... and they actually came up with a reasonable PSU power rating recommendation, in my opinion (particularly the first one, with the Amperes required on all of the rails). I used my Gateway GT5656 PC with its Radeon HD3870 video card as a reference. On my Kill-A-Watt, it pulls 235 Watts peak from the wall during 3D/game load (but I imagine it can pull a bit more with a synthetic benchmark.)

Now the calculators above suggested 339 Watts power draw for my PC, but no mention if it's from the DC/output side or AC/input of the PSU, which is an essential bit of information in my opinion. For all practical purposes, I assumed the power draw rating was from the wall (AC/input) side, as that made sense and actually agreed more or less with my own calculations.

But I also tested a few other online PSU calculators, and they gave terribly over-blown results. Because of that, I still don't trust online PSU calculators and I do my own calculations based on actual data from the manufacturer of each of my components. Yes, it's more work, but also more accurate.

The fact that you trust/suggest those online calculators and not do your own calculations really makes you seem less professional than you claim to be. I'm just saying, though. Don't take this out of context.

Here again , i feel i'm repeating myself , and your "PROBABLY" won't add on any difference of the Labeling of Pioneer or Teac ..Maybe you think they overrate their labeling , you as momaka , but them as respected brands who work now for NASA Chattels and spacefaring think otherwise ..They think like me ..

Ah... why do you keep bringing Pioneer and Teac names here? You do realize they are huge companies and they have separate divisions for NASA/aircraft/military equipment than they do for the average optical drive in your PC. Really any large tech company is like that.

And I *never* claimed that the label is a lie. I simply pointed how to understand the numbers that are written on it. Just because the spec sheet says that your Pioneer drive uses 27 Watts doesn't mean that it uses 27 Watts *all the time* when the system is powered. No, it means that it *peaks* at 27 Watts maximum power consumption. Probably during spooling up of the disc, as I mentioned. After that, the power consumption falls to a much lower level.

That is all I tried explaining to you the first time. But for whatever reason, you chose to take that argument very personal and started making fun of me rather than replying objectively to my posts. Go back and re-read the thread. It's obvious... and somewhat amusing, IMO

Add to that a USB card or 2 with 5 expansions each .

Big deal!
2 USB PCI cards with 5 USB ports each with a standard limit of 2.5 Watts/port for each port (I seriously doubt anyone will ever pull that - they would have to be stupid and do it on purpose, like plugging in 10 of those coffee heater thingies), that's 22.5 Watts total. Round that up to 25 Watts just for farts and giggles.

The first one doesn't know that the minimum PSU for a GeForce GT210 is 300 to 400 Watts and the gang didn't care .

Are you talking about me? Wait, I think you are...
.
.
.
Okay, okay, I think I am done laughing now, so let me actually reply to that. Don't know why I am, as it seems you are just trolling with me now. But either way, it's still fun replying to you, I suppose.

Let's start with the specifications page for that GeForce 210:
http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desk...specifications
It says "Maximum Graphics Card Power (W): 30.5 W"
And that is all that really matters here. Doesn't matter if nVidia says you need a 100000000 Watt power supply. That's irrelevant, because that video card will never draw more than 30.5 Watts. So your total system power consumption will be whatever your CPU, HDDs, and optical drives needs plus that video card's power requirements. Based on that, you pick a PSU rating that suits your PC. Anyone here who has built enough systems and knows at least a little bit of electronics will agree.

He doesn't know there are PCI to Sata adapters , or a 24 pins can be used as 20 pins , and then ask for certificates , lol ...

Oh, you are just being too funny now

I don't even know what to say here. Yes, I know nothing. I'm just a little minion. All bow to Mr Jiroy's powerful and endless knowledge.

The second hurried to help him and never heard of a record on the fly and still bragging , lol ..

And the third one is running to help , playing with words , lol ..

Really funny ...

Yes, really funny indeed. Your posts, I mean. But keep talking. I will admit - this is the first time I am so entertained by a member's posts.

[Wester547]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

If the -5V rail wasn't in your requirements, I would have also suggested something like the 250 Watt Delta, HiPro, and LiteOn PSUs from the Pentium 4 era. My personal favorite is the Dell/HiPro HP-P2507F3P and HP-P2507FWP models. You can see photos of the first one here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...&postcount=228
It's a very overbuilt PSU. Can actually handle up to 300 Watts, and I've tested it in both 5V-heavy and 12V-heavy PCs - its voltage regulation is excellent. Only downside is that these PSUs come with Teapo SC and/or Asiacon capacitors, which aren't very good (though, most of the time, even those caps will last 10+ years in these PSUs).

Well, the HP-P2507FWP/3P models can also come with G-Luxon or Arcon capacitors (those made from 2003-2004 can occasionally have Arcon capacitors). Arcon capacitors have the highest failure rate among them all (it's not if but when those will fail if they already haven't). I've seen plenty with blown or failed G-Luxon and Hermei/Asiacon as well. Usually, the G-Luxon on the input of the +3.3V linear regulator, closest to the heatsink, is the first to go. Hermei is a bit more random - I've seen both the 4700uF 10V on the +5V rail and 3300uF 16V on the +12V rail die rather quickly (linuxguru can attest to that as well). Teapo is a bit trickier. I've seen a few bulge but we all know Teapo's tendency (from that time period, 2001 - 2004) to "look" fine but be way out of spec.

But yes, the Hipro PSUs are a great candidate for a recap and if necessary a preemptive fan lubrication. For me, the only Dell PSUs that have lasted 10+ years with the stock capacitors remaining in spec are the NPS-250GB and NPS-250KBs with LTEC and Taicon from the factory, although those have much lighter output filters than the Hipro PSUs and the NPS-250GB has a two-transistor +5VSB circuit so they're not impeccable either (but they are also very solid after a recap). Although if -5V is indeed a requirement, the MPT PSUs you suggested may be ideal.

I believe the FPS300-60BTV actually may use a Fairchild PWM controller KA1H0165R on +5VSB. But it does employ conductive glue, and has unnecessarily inefficient resistors on the secondary which output way too much heat, etc...

And I don't really think you're spamming at all. If you'd deem your post spam, well, my post must be something out of this world by comparison...

[budm]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

I feel that's actually insulting the Greek.
This is a whole new level of either trolling or stupid, can't make up my mind.


jiroy: Scroll back up to my previous post, see how I quote you saying 3.6A
That is wrong, and I explain why in my post before that.
So please now enlighten me how I'm wrong and 12v 2A & 5v 1.6A really is 3.6A like you said.

The fact that Pioneer writes 27w in the datasheet comes down to testing the actual power consumption.
A drive will never use all the power on both 5v and 12v simultaneously.
But who am I kidding, you can't even read the label on the drive itself to begin with, it clearly states 2.2A

It will be interesting for him to show us the label on the unit that he claimed he has.
BTW, I am sure there is current draw on 5V too at the same time as the from 12V since it needs that for the logic, LASER, etc.

[budm]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

Good , keep it like that badm , cause , when someone read your initial reply , he will think it's open , which is not the case .. It's not open and it's not shorted , it's simply working (while he thought it's shorted ) and he have to search for another culprit ..he just doesn't know what it is first of all .

See how playing on words can go both way badm ?

I CLEARLY STATED THAT IT IS NOT SHORTED, HAMI also indicated that it is 0.26 Ohms resistor, I also indicated that RESISTOR WHEN IT IS BAD IT GOES OPEN CIRCUIT. So OP knows that from the two answers that it is not shorted it and it is 0.26 Ohms resistor. You are the one that does not understand. The OP already got the correct info as needed,

[budm]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

"The fact that Pioneer writes 27w in the datasheet comes down to testing the actual power consumption.
A drive will never use all the power on both 5v and 12v simultaneously.
But who am I kidding, you can't even read the label on the drive itself to begin with, it clearly states 2.2A"

Not only that, it is bad info when published spec only show Wattage but not the Voltage and current requirement for each Voltage.
There are reason people do the review and test the device to verify if it met the CLAIMED PUBLISHED spec.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...ves/DVR-221LBK
Very poor specification INFO from PIONEER.
Some companies are better than the other when it comes to details specification, it is bad when PIONEER went the wrong route, it used to give much better and info and supports.

[momaka]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

Again, thanks for all the help and I'm sorry for starting a flame war.

Hey, no worries . You didn't start anything.

We are just trying to make sure the information posted here is correct. So sometimes, that can mean a few arguments. But generally, this is not typical of badcaps.net (unless you go to a political thread in the VIP subforum... but that's after you have 100 or more posts. )
Either way, I'm sure if we all met, we'd go along just fine.

... so I'm looking at a couple on ebay. Since I'm a bit of a masochist, i'm looking at a couple of fortrons (same model as in my other post) and the Compaq's that were recommended.

Would that be the Power Man FSP300 from this thread?
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57764

If yes, that's also a good PSU (I thought I already had commented in that thread, but I guess it's all in my head and I didn't actually post it, lol )
But as you saw, it needs a recap. So if you buy another one, it will need a recap too. Also, I don't remember off the top of my head, but I think some of these FPS units had 2-transistor 5VSB design, which can sometimes damage motherboards if it has a "critical" cap and that cap goes bad. But again, I don't remember if that was this particular model or other FSP/Sparkle units.

If the -5V rail wasn't in your requirements, I would have also suggested something like the 250 Watt Delta, HiPro, and LiteOn PSUs from the Pentium 4 era. My personal favorite is the Dell/HiPro HP-P2507F3P and HP-P2507FWP models. You can see photos of the first one here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...&postcount=228
It's a very overbuilt PSU. Can actually handle up to 300 Watts, and I've tested it in both 5V-heavy and 12V-heavy PCs - its voltage regulation is excellent. Only downside is that these PSUs come with Teapo SC and/or Asiacon capacitors, which aren't very good (though, most of the time, even those caps will last 10+ years in these PSUs). But on the positive side, most of the capacitors in this PSU model are 12.5 mm in diameter. So it will be very easy to find replacement caps for this PSU (finding 16V caps rated for 2200 and 3300 uF in 12.5 mm is very easy, but finding the same caps in 10 mm diameter - which is what many PSUs use nowadays - isn't). So from a recapping standpoint, these HiPro PSUs are awesome!

That said, if you want another good brand that needs recapping, the Macron MPT-301 and MPT-401 models are good candidates for that. Very solid half-bridge design - probably another of my favorites (as well as a few other members here, as you are about to see). Again, it's suitable for both 5V-heavy and 12V-heavy PCs *and* it has a -5V rail. Pictures of the MPT-301:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46101
http://m.badcaps.net/forum/showpost....postcount=2230

and eBay link:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ever-Model-M...wAAOSwLF1YAGhb

Anyways, I won't spam you with more PSUs. Just making a few suggestions in case anyone else reads this (rather long) thread now.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

To Per Hansson, it is useless trying to make him understand the concept, he thinks he is TEACHING us.
He is just another Greek.

I feel that's actually insulting the Greek.
This is a whole new level of either trolling or stupid, can't make up my mind.

Did you ask yourself why your calculations came out differently than Pioneer , did you ask yourself why you came up with 32 Watts while Pioneer came up with 27 watts ? ..Here , you have two options :

jiroy: Scroll back up to my previous post, see how I quote you saying 3.6A
That is wrong, and I explain why in my post before that.
So please now enlighten me how I'm wrong and 12v 2A & 5v 1.6A really is 3.6A like you said.

The fact that Pioneer writes 27w in the datasheet comes down to testing the actual power consumption.
A drive will never use all the power on both 5v and 12v simultaneously.
But who am I kidding, you can't even read the label on the drive itself to begin with, it clearly states 2.2A

[budm]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

Do you mean this one?
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...ORTED+RESISTOR
0.26 Ohms MOX is just low Ohms resistor, it is not shorted since when you have current flow through you will have Vdrops on the resistor, I,E @10A you will have 2.6V Vdrops.. You are F**king idiot.
Even 0.01 Ohms resistor is not consider as shorted circuit is when it is used as current sensor.
When people make the resistance reading most of them do not even consider the test leads resistance or know how to ZERO out the test leads.
They make and use very low resistance value for reason that you do not even understand.
You think that 0.26 Ohms is bad too, ha.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

Ok, same quote again, this time I'll try to be even more obvious as you surely have no idea how to read even your own posts, let alone others.

Well , i was very nice not to add the 2A of the 12 volts plus the 1.6A of the 5 volts which equals 3.6 A under a full pressure from a pcmonger like Nero , you know both voltages are used and needed at the same time , which , in case of 3 DVD writers make 3.6 x 3 = 10.8 A under a full pressure . I'm really trying to be nice here

No it does NOT!
It equals 2A 12v and 1.6A 5v
There is no way in hell to add those two numbers together.
Just like you can not have one elephant at 2 tonnes, and one ant at 0.5 Grams and add them together and get 2.5 Tonnes.
It's 2.0000005 tonnes.
Do you get it now?

If not I have the following quote for you:
A man was driving on the highway and heard a traffic announcement:
-Warning for a driver going in the wrong direction on the highway
Our man replied to himself in his car: One driver!? There are hundreds going in the wrong direction!

[budm]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

According to your theories too , no company will ever put the Wattage on a PSU since they won't be capable in respect to you , to add the sum of 5 or six different voltages existing in the same power supply ? .. In another turn out , you cannot add a sum of elephants to a sum of Ants because there is a different in weight ? .. What you're doing is playing on words , nothing more ...

LOL.
You just do not get it do you?
I am not the only one that is pointing that out so far.
You are too arrogance and now showing stupidity to get the the concept.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

to add the sum of 5 or six different voltages existing in the same power supply ? .. In another turn out , you cannot add a sum of elephants to a sum of Ants because there is a different in weight ? .. What you're doing is playing on words , nothing more ...

What you have written so far in this thread is so wrong I don't know where to start.
But just to show you where you are wrong in your example with ants and elephants:
1x Ant = 0.5 Grams
1x Elephant = 2 Tonnes

Well , i was very nice not to add the 2A of the 12 volts plus the 1.6A of the 5 volts which equals 3.6 A under a full pressure from a pcmonger like Nero , you know both voltages are used and needed at the same time , which , in case of 3 DVD writers make 3.6 x 3 = 10.8 A under a full pressure . I'm really trying to be nice here

2A x 12v = 24w
1.6A x 5v = 8w
Total = 32w

You can't then simply go and add these numbers together without respecting their unit!
The correct answer is not 2.5 Grams or 2.5 Tonnes!

Either stop trolling or go read a book on basic electronics theory.

[batmreload]

Re: Need power supply recommendations for older P2/P3 gaming system

Sorry, folks...didn't mean to start a mean-tempered conversation (You can shoot me for the pun)

Thanks for all the input. I will be looking for a PSU that does provide the -5 rail and is compliant with the older specs. As far as drives: I may be swapping this mobo out for a recapped BE6 in the future and adding a sata adapter. I use old IDE drives for backups and I might also be using this station for a HDD tester so that's 2 ide's of various speeds, the OS drive (7200rpm) and a sata drive via pci adapter. The system in question is currently working with a newer Xeon XON-500F8X2-201 500watt PSU, but that's my backup for another system. Should it fail, then i really WILL be out of psu spares, so I'm looking at a couple on ebay. Since I'm a bit of a masochist, i'm looking at a couple of fortrons (same model as in my other post) and the Compaq's that were recommended.

Again, thanks for all the help and I'm sorry for starting a flame war.