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**paul_h** · 10-30-2007, 05:26 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

edit, just so you know I did search, I found panasonic EETHC2D122JJ, but farnell.com only lists the 250v version, which is 5mm wider, and as these two caps are tight together and I'm going to replace both, I don't think they'll fit.
If I can get 1000uF or 1500uF at the right voltage and dimension, will it be alright to use them as replacements?

**starfury1** · 10-30-2007, 06:44 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

You may
(possibly depending on design)
Get away with 1000uf or 1500 uf

I'll have to leave that to the guru's on psu's for further comment
as I am not sure on if it has Active PFC (or passive) or how its liable to be arrange since you say they are 200 Volt caps?

(if it was an older design with a 115V/230V switch then no worries so long as the bridge rectifier (& ntc) was up to it)

1200 uf @ 200Volt is rather large
what specific model is it?

Yeah getting hold of caps that size here is going to be fun
(but I think you maybe able special order from one of them)
They are not the only suppliers in Oz but you may have to let you fingers do the walking

If you blew a mains Cap then you will need to check the front end
(the mains side of things)
and replace the MOV's if they are there as well
(should be across each cap in the older designs)

Check the Bridge etc
A short on this side is going to result is fireworks.

Remember its sits "directly" across the mains 230VAC

stuff all help I know
but hopefully someone knows these and can comment.

Cheers and Welcome

**gonzo0815** · 10-30-2007, 09:45 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

If the main fuse is blown, i would not be so keen in fixing it.
Large input caps aren`t cheap and it is quite possible that there are other failures too.
So if you only need a PSu, look at some Seasonic or FSp ones.
In most cases a 330 to 400w unit would be sufficient and would not be that expensive (i would consider about 50 US$) .

Any way, if you do this for fun or if caps are cheap, just remove the MOV`s and test or replace the input rectifier to make sure that your new caps won`t burn too fast.

Personally, i am not a friend of Tagan PSU`s, even if they are very popular due to very successful marketing campaigns her in DE.

**paul_h** · 10-30-2007, 09:58 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

So you don't think a shorted out capacitor would be blowing the fuse?
As far as replacing the PSU, something decent would cost au$80, while two 1000uF capacitors cost $28.
This tagan was a 480w and powered my TV box, quite a few hdds and a/v cards so I wouldn't want anything less than a decent 500w PSU. Everything for a PC has a huge markup here, including power supplies.
I'm not an electronics specialist, mainly a beginner. I'm an air con mechanic that replaces fuses and PCBs, the most involved I get in electronics is testing diodes or soldering on new MOVs on a/c PCBs after a power surge.
I know the MOVs on the PSU are fine, and that a faulty capacitor alone can cause a fuse to blow. That being said I have no idea how to test the recitfier.
Also I'd already replaced the fuse, (I didn't see the damaged capacitor under the heatsink, and never heard the fuse blow when it stopped). Anyway, it was just that one blown capacitor that arced and went bang, everything else looks visually OK. Is there any other reason than a faulty cap and there not be further damage. Like the other capacitor is fine, all the MOVs and tracks are fine?

**ChaoZ** · 10-30-2007, 03:05 PM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

Thre regular flavours for the reservoir caps are 680uf@200V x2 or 800uf@200V x 2. these are 22mm diameter. The >450W are probably using 330@400V single cap.

1000uf@200V is on the rare side, which is probably why they are more expensive. Not quite worth the effort at $28, unless you cant get a replacement quality 400W PSU.

You might need to check other components around the capacitors as well - the resistors and varistors in the series.

Be careful.

**Super Nade** · 10-30-2007, 03:21 PM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

For a 400W non-APFC PSU, I use 2 x 820uF, 200V Nippon Chemicon KMD.

Scroll down here:-
http://super-nade.blogspot.com/2007/...-430w-psu.html

**starfury1** · 10-31-2007, 02:42 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

Umm yeah a short cap should hopefully blow the fuse, I would think

I suppose the design is some what similar to this one reviewed a JG's site
Here Tagan easycon 530W

It does use large value caps but I cant read exactly what X000 uf
(1000 uf I guess voltage ?)

(...a pdf I found stated it does have A-PFC? go figure)
Anyway

Testing the bridge is basically 4 diodes in one package so treat it as such

Ac to + should read like a diode
doing other AC + like a Diode too
ditto AC (both) -

AC to AC should read as high resistance open circuit in both directions

This is memory serves me correctly.

The one thing that can happen that you can't easily check is the reverse voltage break down PIV (peak inverse voltage or Vrrm, same but repetitive)
If in doubt like gonzo said just replace it with same or bit better spec device
(I would myself just replace it)

As I said I don't know how the front end is put together
in the old days you had a switch to select if it was on 120 or 240 volts operation this would change it from voltage doubler to fullwave bridge rectifier operation

They did later have IC's that would "sense" this and auto switch the mode of operation, but I don't know how often they were used in computer PSU's.
(from memory)

Active PFC is designed differently and I don't know a great deal of how they are put together except you will usually find one Cap only and at 400V.

So with your PSU I just don't know how its done

All WARNINGS ETC
Apply here you are dealing with mains rated stuff that sits across the mains with no isolation

My General Advise on this
IF you don't know what your doing take said Item and pay someone to fix it that does!

Electrocute yourself don't blame me or the forum

Having said that and most probably you don't have a Variac or mains isolation transformer.

The following will in no way protect you really but may save your psu

I would advise since you have a mains side problem that you use the "light bulb trick" to protect the PSU (hopefully) from going flash bang

Put a light load on the secondary
couple of old HDD's
Id use an old system for final burn in testing on it thought
Oh yeah you got to short 2 pins to kick it over...posts on that around here somewhere not sure off hand (14 ,15 green, black but check this)

The light bulb trick

Is you put a light bulb (40W~100W depending)
in SERIES with the ACTIVE line to the psu.

The Idea is if there is a short the light will act as a "resistive LOAD" across the mains limiting current flow.
(hopefully saving the psu from damage.)

if all is ok what normally happens is the light flashes briefly as the caps charge up then goes out (or very dim depending)
If all is ok with the psu

If it stays on you got a short

Here is the page on the Light Bulb trick

I have to put the warnings in cause effectively you may as well be working on your house wiring as fixing that side of a psu...its potentially deadly stuff!

Yeah decent supplies here are not cheap at all for some reason but

Look at some Seasonic or FSp ones.

or Corsair HX620W seasonic built
(but try more like $165~$200+ AU for it)
If you do decide to get a new one

Good luck with it and becareful

HTH

Cheers

**paul_h** · 10-31-2007, 05:31 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

Thanks for the advice, I know a fair bit about electricity (I have a restricted electrical licence, work on 415v AC motors and 240vac/380vDC air cons and inverters).
I'll have a look on the things you said.

**gonzo0815** · 10-31-2007, 06:09 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

Well, if really only the cap by it`s own went fubar, then ok, replace the rectifier and the caps an you are probably done.

In my opinion high voltage electrolytic capacitors are not prone to do this very often.
Sure, the Fuhiju caps are from inferior quality, but i haven`t seen many pic`s from blown input caps without cause.
Thus i expected some other failures too, but may be i am thinking too negative

**starfury1** · 10-31-2007, 07:05 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

ok in that case should be easy for you to understand what I was talking about with regard to the lamp and not an issue for you to knock up a lamp holder etc to use inline.
(its only basic ohms law stuff without the maths as to what happens)

A lot that come here Paul H are complete noobs
(nothing wrong with that,we all got to start somewhere)
so I tend to post the warning as mains can be hazardous to your health and better left alone if they really got no idea.
May not be legal too depending on were in the world you are
(or state)

Yeah gonzo I agree, It usually more likely something took the cap out,
then it failing of its own accord, although possible.

(like over voltage due to some other fault or as in the case of the one I posted were it appears the voltage devision was left to the cap characteristics them selfs cause they didn't put the resistive voltage divider in to force equal voltage across each cap, anyway I think thats why it failed and blew the ruby..lets not talk about anything else they left out

)

sure there must be some mob out there in Oz that can supply or possibly order caps for you, unfortunately I found the same with RS and farnells they don't seem to carry a full range of anything ...just the more popular values.

Keep us posted on how you go and if you like post a few photos

cheers

**paul_h** · 10-31-2007, 09:10 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

You are member of OCAU?
Just asking because you australian, all the pictures are posted on a thread there. If not what hosting do you guys prefer here?

edit: How do I get info on what to replace the rectifier with? It's pictured here but nothing is written on it.

**starfury1** · 10-31-2007, 11:14 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

re the bridge looks like its heat sinked so they would be under that I think

Wet finger in the air .....10 Amp 1000 PIV (Vrrm)
(its probably a little smaller thought)

BTW that O'clockers AU humm think I am but forgotten who I am LOL
And Yeah there are a few of us here I am on East coast.

BTW you want to post photos here (you dont have to use off site) think TC prefers them posted here anyway..keeps it all together on his server.

here willawakes guide
(Our Super Modulator, that works for beer

)

Inserting images in your post

(ideally if their are large files (preferably not, unless you think people mind need to get up close an personal for the point of the photo) don't use the [img] tags, it thumb nails at the bottom of the post)

Ok found your post, someone mentioned a recap ...might not be a bad idea since your got it in bits.
but probably best to see if you can get it working first

BTW were does that blue black and white plug arrangement go?

**paul_h** · 10-31-2007, 08:07 PM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

The blue, black and white leads go into this little PCB hangning off the heatsink.

I checked the diodes on that rectifier next to the lown capacitor and it seems OK, 0.5 v one way, open circuit the other. But if I should replace it anyway, I dont have any info on it.

**starfury1** · 10-31-2007, 08:45 PM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

yeah the little PCB had me wondering too
(like I said I don't know the front end of these so trying to figure it out, )

"I could totally be wrong here"
but maybe that is some kind or auto switch.
although doesn't look to be much on the little PCB

The wire run off toward the Bridge and the Caps...so maybe and pure Guess work.

The Bridge as I said has a heatsink attached so the number will be under that.

The design looks a little old school to me but not to say it is.

Anyway yeah possible but not often a cap will die by its own accord so you need to check as has been stated no other faults exist
there maybe 2 resistors across each cap
(like I said I don't know the circuit and I am only guessing)
they force equal voltage sharing accross caps (the resistor are in series, as are the caps for that matter in full bridge mode...old school psu anyway)

I have links posted around here but do you think I can find a post with one in it
LOL

anyway HTH

Cheers

**paul_h** · 10-31-2007, 11:12 PM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

Ok the rectifier is marked as KBU 1006.
It shows a short between these two terminals, but all others test ok.

ie. two inside pins tested against each other forward and reverse, one way 0.5v, other way open circuit.
Two outside pins tested against each other, one way 0.5v, other way open circuit.
Outside left to inside left one way 0.5v, other way open circuit.
Outside right to inside right one way 0.5v, other way open circuit.
Heres tha liitle PCB those wires go to, looks like the resistors run hot.

**paul_h** · 10-31-2007, 11:28 PM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

So I guess the rectifier is a 10amp 600v one yes? Anyone know a source for these, I haven't been able to find anything that shape (to fit the heatsink) and the only ones I've been able to find that shape are 6amp, or 1000V and to big

**gonzo0815** · 11-01-2007, 05:32 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

In DE they are available trough rsonline and various other electronic stores, you might also use an GBU1006.

Any way, i would recommend to use a version with an higher blocking voltage, like the KBU1008 or KBU1010.

**starfury1** · 11-01-2007, 05:41 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

I think farnells would carry it or close...I looked it up for stevo awhile back.
maybe RS but think there range was somewhat limited...for some reason.

just having a look...and yeah see what you mean...looks like you out of luck with them

An 800 piv or 1000 piv version is no worries so long as its 10 Amps
but I cant seem to find one...

Altronics etc might but very much doubt it

as I said 10 Amp 1000 PIV or 800 would be ok...just (to my mind) make sure you get a 10A with the right case style

I'll have to check the numbers but sounds about right to me
pin out for that package will be the same (or it should be)
KBU

BTW be sure you check it removed from circuit to confirm
maybe something els is short and thats what you seeing,
(did you remove the blown cap?)

if you like post a pic of the bottom of the pcb I might be able to nut a bit more out from it

here is a schematic of an old style of computer supply

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

Have a look through PeteS sticky on psu too

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=836

you dont have a switch (115/220V) like the diagram and maybe thats what those 3 wires and little circuit pcb do, sense the correct voltage and auto switch to the correct mode either voltage doubler mode (115V) or fullwave bridge mode (220V)

I don't know and I am only guessing

I did a post on this but will have to find it...it explains this a bit better how this is done but as I said this does not mean you have this type of circuit but it looks like it

Humm gonzo has posted in the mean time and yeah I'll second that 800V or 1000V Vrrm (PIV) is better I think too. if you can get one

I'll get back to you

**starfury1** · 11-01-2007, 08:08 AM

Re: tagan dead, caps to blame

OK found the thread

J1 function is what I suspect that circuit might be doing but I really don't know
There seems to be a few components on that little PCB diodes resistor caps and a couple of transistors (of what they truly are I have no idea the large one might be a TRIAC)

I know it was done with IC's, dont know if it was done with discrete components

This is basically how it works for old school PSU's

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...0&page=1&pp=20

the modern A-PFC versions would be alone theres lines.

See yanz's post at the bottom it has the diagram (UC 3817 )

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4404

Now what you got to realize is designs have changed and I don't know were yours fits in the scheme of things.

If you see a chip in the front end like UC 3817 the it has "Active Power Factor Correction (A-PFC)" which is another ball game and one I am not really familiar with.
What I do is write down chip numbers and google it to see what it is if I don't know

There is a bit of circuitry next to the fuse holder and I can see a chip but no idea what it is

So if you can post that number it might help me understand it
and also the number of that large device on the little pcb

So thats why I am having a hard time cause I've never seen the guts of the tagan PSU up close and personal and its a mystery to me.

Cheers

BTW does you camera have macro?

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