Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

[gastorgrab]

I've seen a list of behaviors that suggest the caps might be bad on your motherboard but nothing about power supplies.

Did i miss it somewhere?

I have Enermax 430 Whisper that has developed the problem lately, it no longer likes the load it's been carrying. If i unplug half of the devices the machine will run forever but with everything plugged in it freezes after 10 minutes.

I assumed that something inside the power supply was heating up and preventing the motherboard from getting enough power but i don't know if caps would cause this. Am i wasting my time by opening up the Power Supply?
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[Nitwig]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

I don't think its ever a waste of time opening up a power supply to check out the caps. You'll be kicking yourself if that is the problem and you let it go too long. A bad power supply can do damage to rest of your system. If the power supply is still under warranty, then you shouldn't open it up however. You could RMA it and buy a new power supply in the meantime. I suppose it depends on how much you are willing to spend and how much downtime you are willing to put up with. Computer hardware problems don't fix themselves. If there is a major change in the performance of your power supply then there is probably something wrong with it. Its not worth not doing something about it.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

Think of the power supply and VRMs as pieces of a system that stretches from your wall socket to the ICs being powered. Whether it's a power cord with a broken wire or a crap cap on your mother board that has deposited its excretion, any problem in that system can cause problems. So, if you're investigating problems, the P/S should be part of your list of usual suspects to check first.

[gonzo0815]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

Any sign on your list could be just as well PSU related. In reality there is not mutch difference there.
With experience, you can more easily decide where the problem is.
Any way, usually you have to check both, the psu either by replacing it or by ripple voltage measurement via an scope; the board by visual inspection, scope or ESR measurement of criticall VRM caps.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

I guess i have nothing to lose by opening it up. If i bought a replacement then this would be garbage anyway.

Of course, as much as i've added to this system i should probably installer a larger one anyway.

EPoX 9NDA3+Pro (This one seems to have "K" caps on it. Sanyo, right?)
Athlon64 XP-3500, Winchester core.
Adaptec 29160N
2 x 10K Cheetahs
1 x SATA 250
2 x Pioneer DVD Burners
1 gigabyte dual channel DDR
1 crappy FX5200 video card (i'm not a gamer)

and about 5 or 6 cooling fans.

It's possible it's just too much for a 430 watt power supply.



Thanks for the advice. I hope it will amount to something.
.

[Sparky]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

a 430W PSU would be plenty for that system. If the system used to run fine then started developing issues then it is probably the PSU. Go ahead and pop that thing open and see what you've got.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

I don't see anything unusual inside.

Caps are JP CE-Tur but look like new.

No burns spots, and nothing looks like it got too hot.

No melted glue.

Not even a weird smell.




I guess I'll have to break it better than this.
.

[starfury1]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

I dont do it every day for a living like some here, so they would have a far better idea then me.

Does it happen say 9 times out of 10 when fully loaded?

Freezing is more or less one of the classic symptoms of bad caps.
(not the only reason thought)

did it start happening when you added something or change something ?
or has the system been like that for awhile and then it started happening.
(this sounds more the case from what you say)

Does a reboot get it to start again and if so does it freeze up again
(how long or do you have to wait for it to cool down)

Sounds like its heat related.

if you dont have the gear or skills to do the checks above on the PSU then change it out with another possibly beefer one.

What peripherals did you disconnect and have you tried plugging in one or two in different order

My thoughts are the extra load is just enough to to pull the supply down enough that possibly failing caps on the MB are showing.

Maybe something is causing current surge on the rails dipping the voltage.
(spiking them)

Badcaps dont have to be popped to be bad, mostly a visual is a good way of telling but not conclusive.
only checking with ESR meter will help clear them,
heat or how hot a cap is will affect it too

the other thing is how many hours has the MB done and how hot does the box get?

Enermax are good supplies mostly, I have one that been going strong for 5 years or so (older model)
stay away from liberty if you are going to drive them hard
Seasonic or sparkies version is good value I believe for the warranty

Wet finger in the air and barring something weird with the peripherals I am guessing MB caps. (depending on a few questions above)

Not the guru here but I do have a question of those that are more likely to know

Can a good quality (electrically Vreg current etc) PSU "MASK" the effects of failing MB caps?

I'am sort of thinking yes to some extent but would like an answer from those those that have a lot more experience with MB and PSU's

Cheers

[gonzo0815]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

I have bought two Enermax PSu`s used and sold as bad from egay.
Both units have not shown any problems, until i put a substantial load on them ( e.g. AMD Athlon XP 2ghz).
So i changed the JP CE-Tur caps and one of both is now working fine ( EG 365AX-VE(G) FMA).
The other unit, an older non PFC desing with abouth 4xxw continues in showing similar sings as before the recapping.
But to be honest, i haven`t had the right caps at that time, so i was putting in some with higher or lower capacitance.
May be this Enermax desing don`t like this.
Personally i would recapp all bigger caps with exact replacements at least at the capacitance level.
If this will not fix the unit, may be those smaller caps are the problem or something else.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

Does it happen say 9 times out of 10 when fully loaded?

Freezing is more or less one of the classic symptoms of bad caps.
(not the only reason thought)

did it start happening when you added something or change something ?
or has the system been like that for awhile and then it started happening.
(this sounds more the case from what you say)

Does a reboot get it to start again and if so does it freeze up again
(how long or do you have to wait for it to cool down)[/QUOTE]

It's been in this configuration for about 6 months and has been getting progressively worse. It will now freeze after every 10 minutes of operation under a full load. Unplugging half of whats connected let this machine run for 4 hours.

Sounds like its heat related.

I thought so too since it didn't do it right away. On a restart it will freeze immediately unless i wait 10-20 minutes.

What peripherals did you disconnect and have you tried plugging in one or two in different order

I spent two hours one day, trying every possible combination before i arrived at the 'Bad Power Supply' conclusion.

My thoughts are the extra load is just enough to to pull the supply down enough that possibly failing caps on the MB are showing.

I looked at them and they seem OK. The larger ones are all Sanyo. The 8mm ones are 'OST' 1000uF, 6.3v, and are perfectly flat. I found only two other caps on this board with vents. The twoTeapo 470uF, 16v are pretty small but look OK as well.

Maybe something is causing current surge on the rails dipping the voltage.
(spiking them)

Badcaps dont have to be popped to be bad, mostly a visual is a good way of telling but not conclusive.
only checking with ESR meter will help clear them, heat or how hot a cap is will affect it too

Is an ESR meter cheaper than a new power supply?

the other thing is how many hours has the MB done and how hot does the box get?

I went a little overboard when i built this first 64-bit machine. I wasn't sure what to expect so it's sorta loud, and very cool. I used a Thermalright XP-90 and i rarely see the CPU over 100 degrees F.

Enermax are good supplies mostly, I have one that been going strong for 5 years or so (older model) stay away from liberty if you are going to drive them hard Seasonic or sparkies version is good value I believe for the warranty

This one is at least 4 years old. It's only got a 20-pin ATX connector.

I'm leaning now towards replacement. Any future upgrads would require a 24-pin ATX connector anyway.
.

[gonzo0815]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

After 4 years i would tend to buy a newer ATX 2.0 12v supply.
May be the older Enermax, wich are build to sustain very high 3,3v & 5 volt loads are not capable to deliver lots of 12v power wihtout a significant low voltage load.

That said, i would recomend a 330w to 430w Seasonic S12 or similar from either FSP or may be from one of the Seasonic reseller.

[starfury1]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

after gonzo190815's post and the psu doing 4 years it fits the bill as your problem,
progressively getting worse sounds like caps too

If you can borrow a good psu to confirm it it would be nice

Recap it as he suggested is an option
but there could be other issues like dry joints and if your not into electronics then a new quality PSU is the quickest best option I think

Not sure on the MB caps but I know a few here could give a better idea
They sound OK to me from what you say and Sanyo are OK.
(but like any cap sooner or later they will fail)

Since you say its fine when the psu isn't loaded....I lose my money

I did mention the liberty and I suppose I should explain, I got a 620W in this box
(some what over kill) I bought it for when I do do a re-gut.

Anyway since then I have found out that they are liable to go "boom and lighting shows" if worked to hard, so for a not too demanding system OK but for the cutting edge power towers stay away from them.

You sound like you are liable to upgrade bit by bit so yeah put a good psu with a bit more over head.
some may disagree but me, would rather a psu with more grunt then needed that coasts along then smaller one chugging alone.


Cheers

I'll seconded Gonzo on that " Seasonic S12" they seem to have a good rep with this one and if I had known then what I know now thats what would be in this box

[starfury1]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

Humm Per's post on caps used does ask the question thought.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...t=seasonic+s12

So any one got an up date on this?

Actually it would have probably been this one corsair HX620W
I think it had a longer warranty

[gastorgrab]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

Ordered this one;
http://www.pcpower.com/products/view...hp?show=S61EPS

But of course i will need a 24-pin to 20-pin adapter until the next upgrade.
.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

The PC Power & Cooling PSU arrived today.

But my 24 to 20-pin adapter is still in transit.

---------------------

WOW! There are alot more wires there than the Enermax 430.

I hope i can get them all out of the way.
.

[Sparky]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

It isn't a 20+4 pin connector? Frustrating, most PSUs have the 20+4 to work both ways.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

Yeah, i've been looking for a 20+4 connector so i could re-pin the thing but noone seems to have one that isn't already attached to a power supply.
.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

It's doing it again.

It seemed like all was fine until i noticed that the DVD burners didn't appear in 'My Computer'. Once i powered down the system the machine wouldn't boot. The lights flashed for a second and the power supplys fan went a couple of revolutions.

After banging my head for a few minutes i finally decided to unplug one of the DVD burners power plug. It booted and ran just fine...............until i turned it off again.

.....so i unplugged the second DVD burner, and the machine started up again.

I havn't turned it off yet but already it looks like the problem is the motherboard.



Yet another inspection of the caps on the board reveals no visual signs of trouble.

This board uses Sanyo's for all 10mm caps but there is 15 or 16 'OST' caps on this board with a value of 1000uF.

Are OST caps know to fail without any physical distortion?
.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

I havn't turned it off yet but already it looks like the problem is the motherboard.

OK then, i've started another machine since that one won't boot. If i choose to reboot from Windows it continues to run but if the machine is shut completely down it won't start from the power button.

I'll let it cool down a while to confirm but i expect it to start right up after 20-30 minutes.



I have a sneaking suspicion that a re-cap won't fix this board.
.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Signs that your Power Supply might have bad caps.

Yup, only ten minutes and it started right up.

I know it's possible, but the odds that the brand new PC Power & Cooling supply has the exact same problem as the Enermax supply i replaced must be astronomical.

I even tried bypassing the UPS, thinking (more like hoping) that maybe it was doing something weird because the battery was failing.


Well then...........to re-cap, or not to re-cap????
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