PSU needing warmup to get to right voltage...

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  • eccerr0r
    Solder Sloth
    • Nov 2012
    • 8665
    • USA

    #1

    PSU needing warmup to get to right voltage...

    I noticed my Power General open frame 40W PSUs doing something really peculiar: It's really well below rated voltage. It was dumping out around 4V on the 5V line, and 9.8V on the 12V line. It has an adjustment but even when turned up all the way, it still would not hit more than 11V on the 12V line.

    So I added another resistor in parallel with one of the voltage sense resistors (which is used as the input to a TIL431). With this resistor (I soldered it away from heat sources - more later) I was able to now adjust the PSU to get a full 5V on the output.

    However I now noticed something else that was peculiar : the voltage changed as the PSU apparently warmed up. When stone cold it was producing 4.5V and when it warms up, 5.35V(!) Likewise the tracking 12V went from 11V to 12.3V. These are no-load voltages (but the PSU was rated that it should be fine running under no load.)

    It appears the supply is using the TIL431 to regulate. The TIL431 is what drives the optoisolator that tells the UC3844 to lower the voltage.

    The "critical cap" that filters the UC3844's supply was replaced as it did fail. Since Vref of the UC3844 seems to be a solid 4.98V I think it should be OK, but I should go scope it and the power input just to doublecheck.

    I'm at a loss at what could have such a temperature variation. It has a couple of metal film resistors to set the voltage so those should be fairly stable. The only things I'm concerned about -
    the TIL431 being bad and temperature sensitive... ? I tried heating it with my solder iron and did not see a rapid voltage increase but I may not have heated it enough (plus it's too cramped in there...)
    other resistors (and the potentiometer) being temp sensitive after all these years?
    temperature capacitor leakage? There are no electrolytics I can see on this feedback circuitry, just some yellow inline "drop" capacitors (monolithic?). I can't imagine these to be under significant stress to fail... I might have to replace them with ceramics to see if it helps the issue.

    Anyone seen something like this and debugged it? I would suspect this is an age related problem, this PSU is around 25 years old now I'd guess. Unless it's one of those monolithic capacitors which I can't really test, the ESR of the other large electrolytics seem fine...
  • tom66
    EVs Rule
    • Apr 2011
    • 32560
    • UK

    #2
    Re: PSU needing warmup to get to right voltage...

    This is a pretty typical symptom of dried output capacitors, or a failing TL431.
    Please do not PM me with questions! Questions via PM will not be answered. Post on the forums instead!
    For service manual, schematic, boardview (board view), datasheet, cad - use our search.

    Comment

    • eccerr0r
      Solder Sloth
      • Nov 2012
      • 8665
      • USA

      #3
      Re: PSU needing warmup to get to right voltage...

      I just ruled out the TIL431 - replaced it and it still behaves the same. So it must be a dried cap. Odd that the ESR of the caps are fine but I didn't check leakage or capacitance...

      Just that I need to remove them from the board to test... and I don't have any spares

      (They're all Chemicon SXF including the 35V 39uF cap I replaced already...) Unfortunately I had to replace with a 47uF...
      Last edited by eccerr0r; 03-26-2013, 10:50 PM.

      Comment

      • cheapie
        null
        • Jul 2010
        • 849
        • USA

        #4
        Re: PSU needing warmup to get to right voltage...

        Originally posted by eccerr0r
        (They're all Chemicon SXF including the 35V 39uF cap I replaced already...) Unfortunately I had to replace with a 47uF...
        That sounds like a startup cap - higher capacitance shouldn't hurt anything.

        Comment

        • sam_sam_sam
          Badcaps Legend
          • Jul 2011
          • 6023
          • USA

          #5
          Re: PSU needing warmup to get to right voltage...

          Here Is what I have found

          You need to test these caps at a temp at about 50*F and take an ESR reading then warm the same cap to 90*F if you ESR reading is more than
          10% of your highest reading to me this cap is bad

          When I replace caps that behave like this the power supply then works the way it should


          I have seen this problem at least 4 or 5 time in the last year

          Comment

          • sam_sam_sam
            Badcaps Legend
            • Jul 2011
            • 6023
            • USA

            #6
            Re: PSU needing warmup to get to right voltage...

            Originally posted by cheapie
            higher capacitance shouldn't hurt anything.
            I have found that if the higher capacitance is more than 20% of rated value
            the next test is the ( temp test 50* F then 90*F) need to be done to see if that is more than 10%

            If you test a new cap the same way you will find that the difference is less than 2%

            Comment

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