SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

[theokretes]

Finished recapping the SB Pro 2.0.
I've discovered that RX30's best application is audio or PSUs. Further tests with some motherboards and, yeah, the MOSFETs just can't handle them. Although-- upgrading the MOSFETs may rectify that issue. Future project (maybe)

Creative Labs never used good vendors for capacitors, except in their budget cards that featured CQM (software emulation) instead of real FM... making them virtually useless in lieu of the better sound output *sigh*.

Anyways... the ELGEN and WINCAP electrolytics started to leak out of their bungs. I only discovered this after I began removing them. Thankfully the electrolyte didn't start eating the vias. Caught it just in time.



I'll have to load up some OPL2 trackers to stress the thing for a bit so the caps can break in. YM3812 responds differently than YMF262-M. And CT1747 reponds differently than YMF262, and so on.

The primary reason why these cards are (coveted?) is that they're 8-bit ISA, opposed to most being 16-bit. I just like it for the YM3812. Load it up in a PS/2 Model 25 and you're good to go. Well sort of... CPU is a limiting factor.

[mockingbird]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

I've got one of these (CT1350B). I don't think it's a Pro, just a "Sound Blaster 2.0".

Good post. Mine is just sitting around, I should really re-cap it (And my SB16 too), to preserve the resale value. RX30 are a 130C hi-temp series. I've also got Wincap and Elgen. I'd probably also replace the radial ceramic caps but leave the axial tantalums alone.

[theokretes]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

I've got one of these (CT1350B). I don't think it's a Pro, just a "Sound Blaster 2.0".

Good post. Mine is just sitting around, I should really re-cap it (And my SB16 too), to preserve the resale value. RX30 are a 130C hi-temp series. I've also got Wincap and Elgen. I'd probably also replace the radial ceramic caps but leave the axial tantalums alone.

Actually the tantalums should go at some point due to the potential of shorting out, but I'm too lazy at the moment.

Yes RX30 are high temperature capacitors, but they have the ability to enhance bass and miraculously silence line noise while preserving the high treble frequencies. Also, please keep in mind that when they are rated for 4000 hours, it's at 130C. Meaning... you'll get way beyond 8000 hours for them. I used them for various line-in mixers and speakers that have line noise or hum, and it virtually went away (only around 15% of the original noise left, but you have to crank up the volume very high).

I was going to use two 470uF SILMIC caps for the main decoupling caps, but decided against it since the bass probably isn't as coloured as RE3 (SILMIC are very precise capacitors, primarily for pure accurate signals). Oh yeah, and SILMIC caps are gigantic-- they're good on YMF289 though. Could be related to the 4400Hz DAC. I don't know, don't care at this point.

Definitely recap the cards-- as the caps on there could be leaking at the bungs like mine. SB16s are considerably more irritating to recap as there are lots of tiny caps.

Yeah sorry, this is an original SB 2.0 card, but very similar to the SB Pro 2.0 (CT1600).

[mockingbird]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

I admire your passion, but I'd have to perform blind tests on people before I can be convinced of differences in sound quality between different capacitors in audio circuits.

Oh yea... The 16V 100uF caps on my SB 2.0 are Rubycons with a 1993 datecode as well as two tiny 4mm 16V 10uF ones... The SB16 has a few Chemi-Con "SRG" series (Probably obsolete) and also some small Rubycons. So they did use *some* Japanese caps back in the day.

I think it had something to do with nationalism that they only used cheap Taiwanese caps. Still today in Korea they refuse to use Japanese caps. Shame that Koreans are taught to hate Japanese, when they are in fact much closer in every way to Japan than China.

[theokretes]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

No blind tests required for the RX30s really-- they did reduce line noise and hum from my line gear and speakers (which otherwise had a bad hiss). Mind you, I overrated them slightly. OEMs will often underrate caps to save money.

I suppose I could have recorded a squealing pair of speakers and the aftermath, but it's really not worth the effort.

Any quality capacitor will generally lend a bit of "colour", SILMICs are very colourless in that regard, they're made specifically for 'monitoring' purposes, and if you simply cannot believe that, then I can't help with words. Buy some RX30s and SILMICs and try a few tests of your own (I'm sure you'll be able to come up with variances). The effects of capacitors in an audio circuit are interesting.

Here's a shot of the little PS/2 running Edlib, it sure does sound nice:


Colours are a bit funky because it's MCGA and not VGA. The only other system to use the odd MCGA is the PS/2 Model 30 (which I do have, although am considering getting rid of as I have too many computers).

[mockingbird]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

Any quality capacitor will generally lend a bit of "colour", SILMICs are very colourless in that regard, they're made specifically for 'monitoring' purposes, and if you simply cannot believe that, then I can't help with words. Buy some RX30s and SILMICs and try a few tests of your own (I'm sure you'll be able to come up with variances). The effects of capacitors in an audio circuit are interesting.

Oh, I can probably accept the idea that different capacitors will give slightly different results (Because of their electrical characteristics), but I don't accept that specialized audio capacitors give a better result, that means to say, that I don't think you can design a capacitor specifically geared for audio circuits...

If you believe in audiofoolery, then you may as well also believe that there are a whole lot of homeopaths and acupuncturists who can heal what ails you... And I can sell you some magic beans if you want. No offense... Once again, I do admire your passion and enthusiasm.

[Logistics]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

Going from one type of electrolytic to another type of electrolytic will give different results depending on what it's designed for, but the difference may not be as discernable because electrolytics are garbage for audio, even if they are "designed" for audio. Films are proper for audio, but you can't use a film to replace a 470uF electrolytic unless you want to spends tons of money and take up even more real-estate on your PCB. When I replaced the electrolytics in the line-level portion of the circuit, between the main IC and the OpAmps on my SbLive!, there was a world of difference in sound quality--not even comparable.

Search around for my SB16 recap... should be here on Badcaps as well as Vogons and Head-Fi.

[mockingbird]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

Found it:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4140

I've got the CT2230, you can see a picture of it here:
http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=38117

I had to paste together two photos because the card is pretty large.

[theokretes]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

Oh, I can probably accept the idea that different capacitors will give slightly different results (Because of their electrical characteristics), but I don't accept that specialized audio capacitors give a better result, that means to say, that I don't think you can design a capacitor specifically geared for audio circuits...

If you believe in audiofoolery, then you may as well also believe that there are a whole lot of homeopaths and acupuncturists who can heal what ails you... And I can sell you some magic beans if you want. No offense... Once again, I do admire your passion and enthusiasm.

It's not necessarily audio-foolery, but as stated experiments with how different capacitors reacted. Using SILMIC or RX30 (which a lot of recappers haven't even heard of) are not typical general purpose capacitors...

http://www.digikey.com/product-detai...116-ND/2171167

As stated before, take a look at the size of the SILMICs for 470uF at 16v. That is absolutely huge, and the construction with silk is a bit different and unusual...

Furthermore, after doing some more investigating, the reason why the RX30s in an audio application remove noise and hum, is because they're operating on their noise reduction principle-- whereas you probably wouldn't LISTEN to those effects in a power supply, but when applied to audio decoupling, they will just remove noise as if they were in a power circuit.
--> now this DOES fall in line with my actual tests (the fact of the matter is, they did reduce 60Hz hum whereas other capacitors like KME did not...)

I don't necessarily find it as offensive as I do frustrating. Especially when someone doesn't seem to be obliged to purchase either capacitor brand for a few bucks and do the tests themselves-- and then continues to compare it to acupuncture.

[stj]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

i found a long time ago by accident that if you replace DC blocking caps in audio - specially output ones with Rubycon YXF or similar you get more bass and cleaner high end.

i noticed because that's the "WORST" type of cap i use doing repairs.
and after i fitted them it was instantly noticable.

[Agent24]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

i found a long time ago by accident that if you replace DC blocking caps in audio - specially output ones with Rubycon YXF or similar you get more bass and cleaner high end.

i noticed because that's the "WORST" type of cap i use doing repairs.
and after i fitted them it was instantly noticable.

What do you mean 'worst' - is there something wrong with them?

[stj]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

i mean they have the highest ESR i would use.
they are *my* version of a general purpose cap.

worst = YXF , middle = FK/FR, best = MBZ/MCZ

[UraBahn]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

With regard to capacitor 'sound color', here are my observations, going by ear listening to my various SB16's connected to my 1980s vintage Realistic STA-720 stereo (Tandy RatShack for the win!) using 3 ohm Magnavox speakers:

Regarding SILMIC, Theokretes is right in saying that they have a rather neutral sound. Clearly not ideal for OPL-philes like myself, though ironically SILMIC are a godsend for YMF289B-based cards (CT2910, CT2900, etc.) since they make the 49716->44100 hz resampling artifacts much less brutal to the ear. They might also be good to use in cards that use YMF71x, YMF72x and YMF74x because I've noticed their FM outputs sounds extremely similar to YMF289, right down to the resampling artifacts. However this needs more investigation.

ELNA RE3 seem to be pretty good all-around in audio, very good performance for the price (hella cheaper than SILMIC at any rate.) ELNA have decent high-end response, at least to my ears. The lows are only average though.

All Rubycons (RX30, ZL, ZLH, YXG etc.) seem to have a characteristic "Rubycon sound", in that they tend to be noticeably bassy, yet only slightly above average in the high-range (still far better than the old ELGEN and Wincaps used in SB's at any rate!) The RX30 is a bit different, though: it too has the "Rubycon sound", but it's noticeably warmer and brighter. RX30 seems to be in its niche when used on SB16's with TEA2025 amplifiers, for the 470uf decouplers.

Panasonic low-ESR and GP caps are surgically precise in the high ends but tend to flatten the lows. I need to investigate Panasonics in more depth though.

Nichicon VX's strongly emphasize bass at the expense of highs. Other Nichicons vary widely from series to series, but generally noticeably favor the low range as well. (Yes, using axials in place of radials looks awkward and takes a lot of space, but why not, just for 'science'? )

Chemi-con caps are distinctly mediocre in SB16 audio from my observations, though KY is much better than most curiously. KY's output is strictly middle of the road in all areas, not terrible.

On a side note I've found KY to be very rugged (gotta love that 7000~10K hour life!) and almost universal - I've had great success using them in recapping sound card inputs, old video cards, compactflash-to-IDE adapters, etc. and they've performed extremely well. I even used KY to recap an old VLB Tseng ET4000 video card - it actually slightly reduced the noise going through my sound card (the old decoupling/grounding tantalums on the Tseng probably had drifted out of spec and were allowing the Tseng's components to inject crap into the bus) and just _very_ slightly cleaned up the otherwise somewhat fuzzy picture. (At least now I can make out the pixel edges! it's still inferior picture-wise to my Diamond S3 805, though its vastly faster in Mode 13, which is why I got it...)

[Logistics]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

One thing I've been thinking about revisiting on SB16's equipped with TEA2025's is the voltage-regulators they typically have. I was looking up the regulator on a sound-card once, and it stated in the datasheet that for optimal function it needed a 1500uF 'lytic on the voltage-input and on the voltage-output, which is a far cry from what any of these cards are equipped with.

[lti]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

What voltage regulator was that? I thought they used a 7809.

I haven't heard a difference between different brands of caps very often. I usually only hear a difference when the old caps are bad or have too little capacitance. I did hear a huge difference in the sound files posted by UraBahn in his sound card recapping thread.

When I buy new caps, I just get whatever is the cheapest. That is usually Nichicon VR or Panasonic M series. When they're in a hot location, I'll get 105°C caps like Nichicon VZ or Panasonic EB.

[Logistics]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

Well, the only reason I used electrolytics on the outputs of the SB16 at all was simply due to the unrealistic idea of 470uF's worth of films. But I did use low-impedance Panny FM's IIRC, because I think I imagined (not that it's not true, but that's probably the idea I had in mind at the time) they are faster than a general-purpose capacitor and thought they'd be better for accuracy and bass. But I never got around to bypassing the input/output capacitors with films, at the very least.

I'd love to get to this, but my wife and one-year-old take up all my time, and I have another one due around Halloween. :P

[Dusko75]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

Hello everyone,

I'm new here and a little late for the party....
I just got a SB Pro 2 (CT-1600) and was thinking about replacing it's caps to build a 486 PC in the (near?) future. I can't test if it works right now and how bad it could sound, anyway would like to start getting the caps I need..

I may be able to read the caps labels myself but maybe someone has a list of all the caps needed? What brand to get? any schematics around?

I'm exited about this project, what I had back in the day was a Pro Audio Spectrum 16, (which served me well) and now, 30 some years latter I got my hands on one of this....
I'm handy soldering stuff so don't worry this isn't new to me.

I'll make sure I test it before and after of course....

Thanks in advance, I hope someone reads this lol,
Dusko.

[Dusko75]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

I may be able to read the caps labels myself but maybe someone has a list of all the caps needed? What brand to get? any schematics around?

I think the most important question here is what kind? (Radial, Solid Aluminum, smd, tantalum,?) Should I replace all of them? If not, which ones?

Thanks again,
Dusko

[momaka]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

I think the most important question here is what kind? (Radial, Solid Aluminum, smd, tantalum,?) Should I replace all of them? If not, which ones?

Probably just the Aluminum electrolytic caps (be it radial, axial, or SMD... well, if a board that old even has SMD - I doubt it).

As far as what to replace - I don't have this board so I can't say. Better to post pictures here (attach using forum's built-in feature). That said, is there even a reason you want to recap it? Sure it's an old card, and if it really is 30 years, some of those electrolytic caps may have dried out. But I am just curious what is the drive here.

[Dusko75]

Re: SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 recapping

Hi and thanks for your reply,
my idea is to make this card sound the best it can, I'm aware it's an old technology and by no means is hi-tech, (it was basically for video games). I want to make sure that it doesn't lack any frequencies due to bad caps. I didn't do a lot of research yet but it looks like Japanese (Rubycon) caps are among the best, and easy to find on e-bay.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or if you have any ideas, that's why I came here for.
Also, here is a picture of it,

Thanks for your time!
Dusko.