Laptop battery repair/replace

[Curious.George]

We're starting a project to supply laptops to underprivileged school kids. The laptops are sourced from corporate donations (for the most part). So, many "identical" units -- though not enough for the entire project (we're looking at > 1000 laptops).

I am anticipating that many of the batteries will be dead. Or, dying. Or, may die soon after the laptop is rehomed (and, repairing/replacing it at that point would be tedious and inconvenient, for all parties).

At one extreme is the idea of just replacing all batteries before distribution. This would be prohibitively expensive.

The other extreme is "as is, where is" (if your battery works, you're a lucky one! if not, <shrug>).

A middle ground would be to recondition the batteries (trading volunteer labor and the cost of the cells against the cost of a new pack).

I'd like to avoid this as I don't consider it practical -- hours involved, skillsets involved, differences in packs (number and types of cells), cosmetic issues (I assume all packs are solvent welded -- "no user serviceable parts inside").

And, once you commit to providing a functional battery (as in the first option), then you invite clients to come back for repairs when that battery shits the bed.

Does this seem reasonable? Is there another alternative that I've missed?

[I need to make my pitch to the powers-that-be and don't want to overlook any issues]

[piernov]

Re: Laptop battery repair/replace

Friendly reminder that lithium batteries are dangerous. You mess with the battery, you are fully liable to the damage caused if something goes wrong.

In any case it's not economically viable to refurbish battery packs. The individual cells are usually more expensive than a replacement battery provided you don't buy the cheapest cells from Alibaba/Aliexpress/eBay which will obviously be complete garbage.. You need a spot welder to replace the cells properly.
Neither it is technically viable. And except some rare battery packs, most of them cannot be opened cleanly and you'll not be able to close it back up properly. A good bunch of them will probably be in permanent failure mode so you'd have to reset that. After cell replacement you'd have to reprogram the BMS anyway to match the characteristics of the new cells, and that's not a piece of cake at all (requires a deep understanding of multi-cell lithium batteries operation).
And then the labour required to do all this… it's not a 2 minutes job.

Basically those issues also partly explain why there are so much garbage batteries on the market. Low quality cells, improper BMS or programmed incorrectly. Which will sadly also be a huge problem if you plan on replacing all the batteries… except if the laptop are recent enough so that you can get original batteries, or you are lucky enough to find a reliable supplier.

If ever you get all of this right you better open a battery factory/supply company, I'd buy from you.

Even manufacturers get it wrong, every popular electronic devices manufacturer has had multiple battery related recalls.

[Curious.George]

Re: Laptop battery repair/replace

Friendly reminder that lithium batteries are dangerous. You mess with the battery, you are fully liable to the damage caused if something goes wrong.

That already applies to many of the items that we recondition/return-to-use. Folks sign a standard disclaimer absolving us of liability if, for example, their "recycled" wheelchair breaks and injures the occupant. Or, if they get a respiratory infection from an improperly cleaned CPAP, etc. Likewise, if a recycled computer catches fire (the original manufacturer would likely weasel out of any liability as it had been "reconditioned").

As these things haven't happened, the powers-that-be won't see them as likely deterrents to the battery rebuilding process.

In any case it's not economically viable to refurbish battery packs. The individual cells are usually more expensive than a replacement battery provided you don't buy the cheapest cells from Alibaba/Aliexpress/eBay which will obviously be complete garbage.. You need a spot welder to replace the cells properly.

You also need a shredder to mechanically destroy disks. I'm willing to bet that YOU don't have one. <grin> Acquiring specialty equipment isn't usually a problem -- you can convince someone to donate it to you or the funds to buy one (we had a donor give us a forklift, recently... a spot welder costs less than the bolts that hold the tires onto the lift!)

I imagine buying cells in lots of 1000 would make it economical. And, it's almost impossible to convince a (non-technical) decision maker that there is a difference between a cell bought from vendor A vs. vendor B. In much the same way that a "52 inch TV" is the same product from widely differing vendors -- just different price points.

Neither it is technically viable. And except some rare battery packs, most of them cannot be opened cleanly and you'll not be able to close it back up properly. A good bunch of them will probably be in permanent failure mode so you'd have to reset that. After cell replacement you'd have to reprogram the BMS anyway to match the characteristics of the new cells, and that's not a piece of cake at all (requires a deep understanding of multi-cell lithium batteries operation).

Again, the technical issues will be dismissed outright -- because they can't relate to them. If you can replace a motherboard in a laptop then surely you can swap "battery guts", right?

I think the most likely example of how "impractical" this would be is the physical reassembly issue. I can "carefully" cut open a battery pack and go through the motions of removing/replacing the guts. Then, GLUE it back together and show how the mechanical fit will always be a bit off. "Here, YOU try it!" That's something they can see and touch. There's no hidden technology that they have to try to understand.

And, the consequences of putting a battery back together only to discover it is not usable -- have you now "wasted" those new cells that you paid money for? Can you disassemble it AGAIN and make another attempt at reassembling it properly??

And then the labour required to do all this… it's not a 2 minutes job.

Labor is always free at non-profits. I've watched people "despool" video tape from VCR cassettes (the tape is not recyclable but the plastic case is).

Basically those issues also partly explain why there are so much garbage batteries on the market. Low quality cells, improper BMS or programmed incorrectly. Which will sadly also be a huge problem if you plan on replacing all the batteries… except if the laptop are recent enough so that you can get original batteries, or you are lucky enough to find a reliable supplier.

Laptops will typically be 18-36 months old. Most of the big donors just swap out all of their kit on those sorts of update cycles.

"Original" batteries would undoubtedly be too expensive (unless they could strongarm a donor into buying them). So, it's either replace with knock-offs or rebuild.

My position is that the reason we're dispensing laptops instead of desktops doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they can be battery powered but, rather, that they are smaller than desktops (with separate keyboards and monitors). So, more likely to be accommodated in these homes than a larger piece of equipment (that would need "its own dedicated space" -- a laptop can be folded closed and slid into a drawer or under a bed).

I.e., avoid the battery issue entirely. In much the same way that you wouldn't insist on having a brand new spare tire in a (free) car that you were giving to a client -- or an XM radio.

[RethoricalCheese]

Re: Laptop battery repair/replace

18-36 month old laptops rarely use 18650 cells anymore.

Programming controllers shouldn't be a problem. There are cheap tools and not so cheap software for it.

But.. I really doubt having a good working battery is an issue if these laptops are for home use since they should be on a table behind a charger anyway.

[Curious.George]

Re: Laptop battery repair/replace

18-36 month old laptops rarely use 18650 cells anymore.

Programming controllers shouldn't be a problem. There are cheap tools and not so cheap software for it.

I think an argument based on the technical issues will fall flat. That part of the decision makers' brains is just "missing" -- not defective but "absent". They don't have the skillsets to be able to evaluate those types of arguments. They see "computers" being disassembled and reassembled and figured ANY bit of electronics can similarly be processed.

But.. I really doubt having a good working battery is an issue if these laptops are for home use since they should be on a table behind a charger anyway.

That's my point. If we distribute desktops -- even USFF machines -- the client needs a place to set-up that machine... keyboard, mouse, monitor, "CPU", power supply (as many USFFs seem to rely on "bricks"). When the student is not using the system, there's no easy way of storing it out-of-the-way.

By contrast, a laptop lets a student drag it out onto the dining room table after a meal and work there -- even if they have no such worksurface available in their bedroom! There is likely a power source nearby. Or, a way of accommodating him that can be solved with an extension cord, etc.

And, when done, he can fold it up and slip it back in his "school backpack" or under his bed, etc.

We're not distributing laptops so the kids can use them outdoors, in coffee shops, on public transit or in waiting rooms. And, that's what the presence of a good battery would support!

Why burden the task with requirements that don't materially improve the offering? Should every laptop have a 3D display -- cuz that's "nicer" than NOT having that capability??!

[imranromi]

Re: Laptop battery repair/replace

This one is tool for battery introduces for repair.Or also video link.
https://www.laptopu.ro/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqi1oLLhZUU

[jasko_jacker]

Re: Laptop battery repair/replace

I think what Piernov said is largely correct. I worked in a laboratory that dealt with the reselling of large quantities of notebooks that were sold at very low cost by companies that changed their notebooks every 3 or 4 years. the idea of repairing the battery pack had been abandoned for many reasons, (having a new battery container built, too many chip models to reset, inability to maintain a quality standard) the most important is safety, imagine if after having sold a refurbished notebook, the battery burst and seriously damages someone, one would go to court. The problem was solved by purchasing large quantities of low-cost batteries, obviously they are not like the originals but in the end they work quite well. An example, original 70 euros, low cost 25 euros and you have no problems.

[RethoricalCheese]

Re: Laptop battery repair/replace

Can't really agree with the bursting in flames batteries. Atleast with name brand 18650 cells, it is quite impossible to do. Unless you cut the cell in half or something like that.

Only disassembly and reassembly would mostly be an issue when dealing with original batteries which have 18650 cells. They mostly have the same chips so reprogramming should not be an issue. Even fuses used are same.

But new laptops mostly use pouch cells and some even use LiPo instead of Li ion. Now there I see more problems. Getting proper pouch cells can be trickier than getting 18650 cells. And with these cells I see safety concerns. The only laptop battery fires I have heard of, were due to LiPo pouch cells.

With low cost batteries you may get a lot of non-working ones. But since they are new, you can get them replaced. And since they use strange chips, there might be other issues aswell. So if you go that way, you should order a small batch first to test before buying a bulk of 1000.
It is the best option anyway when buying originals is too expensive and buying nothing is out of the question.

[kalilinux25]

Re: Laptop battery repair/replace

Friendly reminder that lithium batteries are dangerous. You mess with the battery, you are fully liable to the damage caused if something goes wrong.

In any case it's not economically viable to refurbish battery packs. The individual cells are usually more expensive than a replacement battery provided you don't buy the cheapest cells from Alibaba/Aliexpress/eBay which will obviously be complete garbage.. You need a spot welder to replace the cells properly.
Neither it is technically viable. And except some rare battery packs, most of them cannot be opened cleanly and you'll not be able to close it back up properly. A good bunch of them will probably be in permanent failure mode so you'd have to reset that. After cell replacement you'd have to reprogram the BMS anyway to match the characteristics of the new cells, and that's not a piece of cake at all (requires a deep understanding of multi-cell lithium batteries operation).
And then the labour required to do all this… it's not a 2 minutes job.

Basically those issues also partly explain why there are so much garbage batteries on the market. Low quality cells, improper BMS or programmed incorrectly. Which will sadly also be a huge problem if you plan on replacing all the batteries… except if the laptop are recent enough so that you can get original batteries, or you are lucky enough to find a reliable supplier.

If ever you get all of this right you better open a battery factory/supply company, I'd buy from you.

Even manufacturers get it wrong, every popular electronic devices manufacturer has had multiple battery related recalls.

Hope to find a good laptop battery supplier