United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

[Behemot]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Sure, in such case it makes sense. It's kinda not the typical patient around here though

If you'll run into more of those PIII-S 1.4GHz chips for cheap, could you get two for me pls? Gonna upgrade my future NAS with them, well, when a fren' finally installs the OS on it

[Per Hansson]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

It's not waste when the unit costs a couple thousand dollars.
And the equipment it controls costs allot more than that just in downtime a few hours!
The picture in my OP is of the same type of mainboard posted here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7413

[Behemot]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Of course not, it was a reply to your post #18, and a followup to my post #13

So you really need this capability anyway I mean it could be usefull for future designs, but kinda waste putting into half a dozen years old HW. I can imagine what the price will be at all those corporation shops

[Stefan Payne]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

People have speculated that the bumblebees were "hybrid polymer", but I'm not sure what they meant by it, because it looked like an ordinary polymer to me.

That means that it fails like a normal wet lytic, meaning open. And not like a normla polymer with a short...

[Per Hansson]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Of course not, it was a reply to your post #18, and a followup to my post #13

[Behemot]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Any of the old boards load them caps with 7.7 A?

[Per Hansson]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Also keep in mind you could load that PSG down with 7700mA ripple at 105°C and it would survive 2000h as Wester says according to it's datasheet.
Now try the same with one of those Rubycon MBZ & MCZ, UCC KZG, Nichicon HM, Suncon WG or Samxon GC and see how well that goes

[Behemot]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Well according to my math, it makes 15 years at 55 °C for Suncon WG 10x23 and 22831 years for the PSGs at 2000 hours (real). So I think pretty much the same, 15+ years for MoBo? Like srsly?

[Wester547]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

At temperatures below 105ºC, yes. Because again, the temperature coefficient for electrolytics is 2x the lifespan per 10ºC drop, and for polymers, it's 10x the lifespan per 20ºC drop.

[Behemot]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Well if what Wester says is true, the actual endurance is NOT listed at temperature AND ripple, and by recalculating it, you get the same 2000 hours…is it a much difference than?

[Clutchbox]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Wow! Those nice fat PSG series polymer makes perfect replacements for some larger 16v KZG-class caps (8x16 to 10x20).

[Behemot]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Yep, that's why I want to det those when there is pretty much no alternative

None of the ultra-low ESR caps ever got over 2000 hours IIRC. Though I noticed they updated these and now the sheet lists 2000-4000 hours. Not THAT bad I guess.

[Per Hansson]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Yea Suncon WG really is a perfect replacement too.
I have a list of caps that are equivalent replacements
It's Samxon GC that I've used in the past.
And Rubycon MBZ and MCZ.
But as we know they are all EOL.

Anyway replacing them with what I wrote in the OP is really the best.
Sanyo WG don't exist in 10000h lifetime version, let alone 20000h

[Behemot]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

There are still the Suncons WG, I do want to get them, but since I am not heavy on cash ATM, it will have to wait. Payment up front with this distributor. Considering how well other crowfunds ever happened here, guess that it will be no ultra-low ESR caps for yo guys anytime soon.

Maybe if you guys were browsing less through all these Mousers and crap, could have had all the necessary caps already…I use them too ya know. Just could not afford to stock everything I like cause most jobs usually don't even pay the full batch if I only need few pieces of it. Only occasionally, like now, I also need some bipolars or larger HV (100V) caps, like for this terrible Cambridge/Creative sub with all that shit inside.* There is work enough so it will maybe pay signifficantly more caps than I need. But there is still the thing with owing for rent for like year and a half now
___________
*It seems that during the first, warranty repair, they changed the original caps for another crap (Teapo SEK). They managed to get bad again, together with the 100V caps. Does anybody really need more evidence to believe only ANIMALS use crap caps for repairs?

[Per Hansson]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Yeah, Chemi-con has been rating their polymers for 15,000 hours - 20,000 hours at 105ºC at the rated voltage for a while now. That’s not at the rated ripple current, however, which would increase the core temperature (in the case of polymers since they are rated for very high ripple ratings) an additional 20ºC (105ºC polymers have a maximum core temperature of 125ºC), thus decreasing the lifespan to 1,500 - 2,000 hours.

That's very good information as always, didn't know that!
Of course I can understand why they did it, in one way it's unfair.
But it depends how you look at it.

Since the PSG caps in my example are rated for 4x the ripple of the KZG or HM caps they would be replacing of course they will not be exposed to that kind of ripple current.
So in all likelyhood they will last longer than I will

[Wester547]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

They were the sleeved ones... You know... the really, really early ones.

They weren’t technically polymer then, although a solid capacitor all the same. It’s intriguing that they both had crusty layers.

Are you sure it's a rubber bunge coated in epoxy? I had to use a large strong pair of grip pliers to crack the epoxy before I could remove it. Once it was cracked it was pretty easy to remove and it fell right out (and the can kept its form relatively well too). I did not see any rubber in there. It looked like it was just simply black epoxy. In fact, some of it was still stuck to the aluminum/polymer coil bottom.

You are right, I just poked around the epoxy of a Sanyo OS-CON SP and could not find any rubber. I think there were some old American capacitors from the 80s that did put epoxy over the rubber bung so as to prevent them from leaking. I think the confusion on my part also stemmed from the fact that the manufacturers refer to the epoxy seals as epoxy *end* seals, or epoxy coated end seals. Furthermore, I just looked at a document which makes no mention of rubber bungs on the sleeved OS-CON capacitors (at the bottom of the second page).

[stj]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

i doubt there was a bung too, the can has no crimp-ridge

[mockingbird]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Were the OS-CON with crusty layers of polymer sleeved or unsleeved? It’s possible the Fujitsu failed simply due to inadequate rubber bungs which allowed for moisture ingress (that would eventually volatize to steam) and the degradation of the functional polymer layer.

They were the sleeved ones... You know... the really, really early ones.

Yes, the TCNQ OS-CON capacitors use epoxy-coated rubber bungs. Although I’m not sure they helped much as stj observed they would still degrade over time (at least leakage current wise).

Are you sure it's a rubber bunge coated in epoxy? I had to use a large strong pair of grip pliers to crack the epoxy before I could remove it. Once it was cracked it was pretty easy to remove and it fell right out (and the can kept its form relatively well too). I did not see any rubber in there. It looked like it was just simply black epoxy. In fact, some of it was still stuck to the aluminum/polymer coil bottom.

[stj]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

sanyo ones - light sky blue sleeves.
they are distinct series - but i dont have the datasheets handy.

[Wester547]

Re: United Chemi-Con PSG with 20,000h endurance!

Regarding the bloating, it was also mentioned at the time IIRC that bloat on bumblebees was harmless and that the top should just be manually pushed back in.

They are known to fail when they bloat too.

What do you reckon then caused the polymer to harden up like that? Plastic shouldn't degrade like that when it's not exposed to UV, right?

Were the OS-CON with crusty layers of polymer sleeved or unsleeved? It's possible the Fujitsu failed simply due to inadequate rubber bungs which allowed for moisture ingress (that would eventually volatize to steam) and the degradation of the functional polymer layer.

Yes, correct... They also have an epoxy bunge (as in, the epoxy was filled in to form and stiffen during manufacture).

Yes, the TCNQ OS-CON capacitors use epoxy-coated rubber bungs. Although I'm not sure they helped much as stj observed they would still degrade over time (at least leakage current wise).

You're referring to the UCC OS-CONs. I have some of those too I should really have a peek inside one of them.

The NCC OS-CONs had dark blue sleeves, but the Sanyo OS-CONs came with both blue and purple sleeves.