Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

[stj]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

you need a hakko T12 clone iron, or a JBC c210 / c245.
both have the heater & sensor embedded in the tip.

some video's here:
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum...p=61175#p61175

[Wester547]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

The polymers bearing purple polarity stripes are APAQ. And it's normal for polymers to have many times the leakage current of regular electrolytics as per the datasheet. It's normal for leakage current to increase after soldering them as well, and simply over their lifespan in its entirety since polymers don't really have a self-healing mechanism like electrolytics do (whatever damage done to their dielectric is essentially permanent). And they are rated for a lower surge voltage than their wet electrolytic equivalents in the datasheet as well. Even NCC concede in their PS series datasheet (the engineering draft) that it's not unusual for polymers to occasionally die by way of a random short circuit.

The reason that Fujitsu was listed in the "bad capacitors" thread is because the early Fujitus polymers (with vent stamps) sleeved with yellow jackets were sometimes known to slightly bulge for no discernible reason. One of the many theories was that they weren't sealed very well (their bungs were hardening too much, possibly?) so they died because of moisture ingress. Another possibility is that during the polymerization process, Fujitsu possibly failed to spot lingering residue on the many layers of polyethylenedioxythiopene and polypyrrole so it created a leakage path which eventually grew enough to cause a short.

As for what's wrong with the board itself... I guess it could be the polymers, or maybe RoHS BGA chipset issues, maybe bad solder joints... but it's an ASUS board so who knows for sure. Did you try it with another PSU?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

The polymers bearing purple polarity stripes are APAQ. And it's normal for polymers to have many times the leakage current of regular electrolytics as per the datasheet. It's normal for leakage current to increase after soldering them as well, and simply over their lifespan in its entirety since polymers don't really have a self-healing mechanism like electrolytics do (whatever damage done to their dielectric is essentially permanent). And they are rated for a lower surge voltage than their wet electrolytic equivalents in the datasheet as well. Even NCC concede in their PS series datasheet (the engineering draft) that it's not unusual for polymers to occasionally die by way of a random short circuit.

The reason that Fujitsu was listed in the "bad capacitors" thread is because the early Fujitus polymers (with vent stamps) sleeved with yellow jackets were sometimes known to slightly bulge for no discernible reason. One of the many theories was that they weren't sealed very well (their bungs were hardening too much, possibly?) so they died because of moisture ingress. Another possibility is that during the polymerization process, Fujitsu possibly failed to spot lingering residue on the many layers of polyethylenedioxythiopene and polypyrrole so it created a leakage path which eventually grew enough to cause a short.

As for what's wrong with the board itself... I guess it could be the polymers, or maybe RoHS BGA chipset issues, maybe bad solder joints... but it's an ASUS board so who knows for sure. Did you try it with another PSU?

Yes, I've tried a different PSU. It's definitely something with the board. So, are polymers generally better than the regular electrolytic capacitors? I thought they were supposed to be. Once I get my higher wattage iron, I'll pull the rest and test them individually. If I cannot fix the board, it's okay. It's been sitting on the shelf for a few years since it broke and I have a Gigabyte EP45-UD3P board now. It'd be nice if I could get this Asus board up and running again but if not, no big deal.

I used to like Asus and thought they were a good name. Now I don't really care for them. I'm trying to find a new manufacturer to go with. I'm looking into Gigabyte and MSI right now. I'm down for suggestions though.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

you need a hakko T12 clone iron, or a JBC c210 / c245.
both have the heater & sensor embedded in the tip.

some video's here:
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum...p=61175#p61175

If I had the money, I'd probably go for JBC. Is there something wrong with the Weller brand name? I've always seemed to like Weller. When I was looking into purchasing a new soldering station, I wanted a JBC but at the time, the Weller WX2 with a micro soldering iron / stand was quite a bit cheaper. I think I paid something like 500$ for everything, granted, I got the micro soldering iron, tip and stand used for a really great price.

[keeney123]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

It's a Weller WX2 Power Unit with a WXMP 12 volt 40 watt micro-soldering iron. Definitely not even close to 60w or 80w. I have some money saved up. Wondering if I should purchase the 120 watt iron or the 200 watt...My power unit would allow me to hook two irons up at once. It heats up extremely quick. I believe the max it can support is 200 watt. Not sure if I can have two 200 watts hooked up at the same time, but I can have two 120 watt hooked up at the same time.

How do I read these Fujitsu caps? I'm guessing the 561 is the microfarads? 56 with 1 zero or 560 uF? The 6.3 is the voltage. What the heck is the top number with the k though? Some have 821k, some have 822k. The Fujitsu ones all seem to have 561 and 6.3 on them. Only the 821k and 822k change.

Also, for the BIOS, there's no way to unlock some features? Are they just simply not in the BIOS? I've seen people unlock various features before using various tools...

Along with the wattage you what a quick recovery. A 200 watt iron should be able to handle most any thing. You will want to have a system that has quick response time and not overshoot the set temperature by very much.

[stj]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

the irons i mentioned have very fast response and cant be touched by any traditional iron with seperate element and tip.

that link i showed is for a diy controller that is frankly better than *any* comercial controller currently around.
you could build that, and just buy a JBC or clone-hakko replacement iron.
(or real hakko, not that there is any point)

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

Along with the wattage you what a quick recovery. A 200 watt iron should be able to handle most any thing. You will want to have a system that has quick response time and not overshoot the set temperature by very much.

Okay. What do you mean by response time? I know, currently, it takes a very short time from when I turn on the unit for it to heat the tip to 650F. Maybe 3 - 4 seconds. There's supposed to be some sensor in the actual tip and it doesn't require calibration because of this.

So is response time just how quickly it takes for the iron to go from temp A to temp B?

[stj]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

response time =

when you put the iron on a joint, the tip loses temperature.
the controller senses the drop and powers up the element to get it back to the preset level.

how fast it can get the temp back up is the response time.
and that is why the irons with the element & sensor in the actual tip cant be beaten!

if you watch those 4 vids on the link, that is what he is showing.
that and how well the controller avoids overshoot. (going over the preset level)

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

response time =

when you put the iron on a joint, the tip loses temperature.
the controller senses the drop and powers up the element to get it back to the preset level.

how fast it can get the temp back up is the response time.
and that is why the irons with the element & sensor in the actual tip cant be beaten!

if you watch those 4 vids on the link, that is what he is showing.
that and how well the controller avoids overshoot. (going over the preset level)

I gotcha. I did go to the link and started looking into it but the phone rang and I got distracted. I'll go back to it.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

you need a hakko T12 clone iron, or a JBC c210 / c245.
both have the heater & sensor embedded in the tip.

some video's here:
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum...p=61175#p61175

For the JBC, isn't the C210 / C245 just the tips? I thought the JBC T210 was a 20 watt iron. Anyway, I ended up going with the WXP120 120-watt iron. I think that should be enough to handle the bigger stuff. For a lot of the stuff I do, the 40 watt WXMP seems to work really well. If I didn't already have the WXMP and the dual control unit / power supply with the connectable pre-heater, I might have looked into building my own unit. Originally, when I was looking into a new solder iron, I stumbled across a similar page (it might have been the same) but I had no way to solder anything at the time. I'm real happy with the Weller I have. It seems to be well built and I like how I can have two irons hooked up at the same time, how I can use multiple wattage irons and how easy it is to change cartridges for the WXMP series iron. The WXP120 seems to use tips though, whereas the micro iron I have uses cartridges. I prefer the cartridges because they have the sensor and they're easier to change when they're hot.

Thanks for sharing the link

[stj]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

the hakko-T12 and jbc are all-in-one.
the tip contains the element and sensor and just plugs into the handle.

[keeney123]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

the hakko-T12 and jbc are all-in-one.
the tip contains the element and sensor and just plugs into the handle.

On the clone you referenced I do not see a output wattage that it can drive at that the 24 volts.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

the hakko-T12 and jbc are all-in-one.
the tip contains the element and sensor and just plugs into the handle.

Gotcha. Like with the Weller I got? There's supposed to be some sensor in the cartridge to sense temp and stuff like that. The tips have some sort of mini-din type connector on them.

So, between Hakko and JBC, which one do you prefer the most Stj? When I was looking into BGA rework stations, there were some cheaper ones, I want to say they were Hakko. But people had issues with them I guess. It very well could have been a different brand name. Last time I looked into it, it seemed the problem was fixed. I want to say it had something to do with using the wrong type of light or something? I have issues with my memory so sometimes stuff comes back all garbled up.

I think once I save up some more money and maybe after the baby, I might try making the control / power unit you originally linked to. That looks like a lot of fun.

[stj]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

On the clone you referenced I do not see a output wattage that it can drive at that the 24 volts.

you mean the maximum drive to the iron?
it's high, from memory it's about 130w because it's just a fet switching the psu feed.
you could even use a bigger fet if you needed.

[stj]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

Gotcha. Like with the Weller I got? There's supposed to be some sensor in the cartridge to sense temp and stuff like that. The tips have some sort of mini-din type connector on them.

So, between Hakko and JBC, which one do you prefer the most Stj?

if i was rich, the jbc seems best,
BUT, i'm not so a chinese hakko clone is best because you WILL want a reasonable selection of tips - and you dont want to pay $50 each for them!!

clone T12 tips on ebay are under $5!!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

Also, you probably don't have anything listings for something similar but for a BGA reballer that uses IR, do you? I've looked into a few things over the years. One was a DIY pick-and-place machine. This one was freaking amazing but when I asked the guy if they were going to share the plans, he said probably not. It was one of the most advanced DIY ones I've seen. Had a microscope on it, used those reels or whatever that the real ones use to hold the components. It could pick them up, rotate them, place them. Just simply amazing.

I haven't really seen any good BGA Reballers. I've seen a few wtf's? Like a Home Depot heat gun hooked to some 2x4 with C-Clamps and a skillet being used for a preheater. I'm not looking for something like that. I'm looking for something that I can program, maybe even control some actuator or stepper motor from the PC to move a digital microscope up and down, etc. Maybe something like this:

http://www.tequipment.net/WellerWQB4000SOPS.html?v=0

Just IR instead of hot air.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

if i was rich, the jbc seems best,
BUT, i'm not so a chinese hakko clone is best because you WILL want a reasonable selection of tips - and you dont want to pay $50 each for them!!

clone T12 tips on ebay are under $5!!

I gotcha. So is Hakko a real good name? Maybe it was one of the clones I was thinking about sucking. I don't mind the Weller name but it can be a bit pricey. Thankfully, I've scored a lot of my stuff 2nd hand for a fairly decent price. The pre-heater, WHP3000 (600 Watt one, not the 1,200 watt :'( ) That thing can go for over 1,000$!!! That's freaking insane for a preheater! I scored mine off e-bay, used, for 200$. The guy was selling a bunch of them so I asked if he could send me the nicest out of the lot. There were holes drilled into the top, to hold down some template so people could do rework work. I removed the template and the holes made it look crappy. So then I just took some nice looking bolts and put them in. They serve no purpose at all, they just look cool. And they do make it look real cool now.

That pre-heater is nice but it's fairly simple. I bet we could reverse engineer it and maybe even use better heaters. I wish it was 1,200 watt and not 600 watt. I'd like to replace the heating elements one of these days. That thing is a freaking game changer though. I have no idea how I was replacing SMD components with paste before I had a preheater.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

Also, what do you guys think would be the best replacement caps for this board? Just the Nichicon FPCAPs?

[stj]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

i would solder a few caps on the underside of the board and see if the problem goes away before spending on parts.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Electrolytic Caps.

i would solder a few caps on the underside of the board and see if the problem goes away before spending on parts.

Okay. What I'll do is wait till I get my higher wattage iron / tip and then remove them and test them and see what the ESR value and capacitance is. Wester547 says it's normal for polymers to have many times the leakage current of regular electrolytics. Would my Peak Atlas ESR 70+ meter be smart enough to know this or would it falsely show them as leaking when I test them?