Better caps than UCC LXZ?

[gastorgrab]

I have yet another EPoX board that needs caps as well as a few GSC's left on the boards i already completed. I wanted to make sure that i ordered something a little more acceptable than the LXZ caps i bought the first time.

Here's what i ordered from DigiKey;

P12343-ND, EEU-FM0J152, 1500UF 6.3V ELECT FM RADIAL
P12341-ND, EEU-FM0J122, 1200UF 6.3V ELECT FM RADIAL
P12355-ND, EEU-FM1A122, 1200UF 10V ELECT FM RADIAL
565-1486-ND, EKY-6R3ELL102MH15D, 1000UF 6.3V ELECT KY RAD

Did i screw up even worse this time?

Why are FM caps listed as "General Purpose"?
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[willawake]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

KYs are a little worse than panasonic FC but they are probably ok. FM are not general purpose they are significantly better than the previous. but in the end the KY are only slightly better than the LXZ.

but anyway i am bored of this kind of topic so just check the spec sheets.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2280

but generally lower impedance is better, higher ripple is better

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Why D-K would call Panasonic FM series "General Purpose" eludes me. Neither FM or KY are ultra-low impedance parts like HN, HZ or MCZ, but they are lower impedance than the LXZ series (which itself is far better than GP parts); FMs are lower in impedance than KYs. Ultra-low impedance parts are usually rated for 2000 hours; LXZ are rated for 3000 hours in 10mm diameter and 2000 hours in 8mm; KY is rated for 6000 hours in 8mm and 10mm; FM is rated for 2000 hours to 5000 hours depending on voltage rating and case size. How they will fare in your system depends on the VRM(s) design, the load on the VRM(s) and the thermal ambient around the caps.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Cool! That's all i wanted.
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[Maxxarcade]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Aww man, I've used the LXY's and LXZ's on several power supplies and boards. Guess I should have checked the specs more closely. But at least I'll get to see how long they last But I mainly use the KY, KZE or FM.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

LXYs or LXZs should do just fine in a P/S (or PMs or PWs or PAs or FCs). The balance/race in water-based electrolyte types (KY, KZx, Hx) between the water attacking the aluminum oxide film and the inhibitors that prevent that attack still makes me nervous. OTOH, Rubycon has bet their farm on water-based electrolyte types, so maybe I'm overly cautious, or maybe Rubycon has a better inhibitor system.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

I'm a little concerned about the quality of caps i put into that first board but i think it should survive with the LXZ's. As long as it's value remains stable it's probably 10 times better than the swelled up GSC's i took out of it.


https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1822

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[Maxxarcade]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

UCC does specify the LXZ as a low ESR cap according to the datasheet. Or do we just call it general purpose here because it has higher ESR than some others?

The 1500uf 10V one I've used on a few boards has an ESR of 0.045 ohms at 100Khz, but the ripple current is only rated for 1440ma.

The Panasonic FM on the other hand, ESR 0.018 and ripple current 2470. Glad I used those on my last recap... the board is being used in a server

Anyone notice that Digikey specs the FM as a general purpose? WTF While the LXZ is specified as Very Low Impedance? That's what led me to believe that I was getting the right caps. When in doubt, always check the datasheet And KY series is only slightly better. I've used hundreds of those on boards at work, though they are only socket 370.

Do we have a chart of ESR, ripple current and hours of life here anywhere?

[Maxxarcade]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Nevermind, found the chart on the above links.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

LXZ, PW and FC are certainly low-Z parts, suitable for power supply output capacitors. So I wouldn't call them "general purpose". As such, however, they would be more than adequate in a GP decoupling slot (assuming it fit and was of similar value); they might even improve noise performance in the area. VRMs, apparently, need significantly lower Z and higher ripple current capability, and this is where things get sticky.

The lowest impedance, non-aqueous electrolyte series is Nichicon's new PA series. It's Z is almost as low as for the HE, KY and YXH series, but rated for 5K hours instead of 10K hours. The HE, KY and YXH series are aqueous and the next step lower in impedance from the LXZ, PW and FC series (and 10K hours instead of 8K hours). Next lower in impedance are the HD, KZE and ZL series, rated for 5K hours. There are 5K- and 10K-hour series that are lower Z still (including FM), and then there are even lower Z series (e.g. HM, HN, KZG, MCZ) that are rated for 2K hours. These 2K series are the lowest Z and are most common in VRM circuits.

As I noted above, aqueous electrolyte caps make me nervous, due to the oxide-attack--inhibitor issue noted above, which is an additional "wear-out" mechanism; heat can accelerate that "race", btw. That said, there have been pics posted here, through a couple of years, in which HE, KY, KZE and ZL series caps are used as P/S O/P caps. Relative to the super-ultra-mondo-low-Z parts (HN, MCZ, HZ), these series are low water content. Also as I noted above, Rubycon has bet their farm on aqueous electrolytes for low-Z caps. They specifically recommend the ZL for P/S usage.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

OK then, i've finished my cheat sheet.

This is intended only as a quick summary of the information from the comparison thread.
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[gonzo0815]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

I would add Samsxon GA series as lowest possible ESR cap especially for the OC boards.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

I should note that my omission of mention of Samxon's products reflects my lack of experience with those products, and is not intended to imply anything other than my personal lack of experience therewith. Given that Samxon's lowest Z products are under 35V plus my company's focus on the three "'cons", I'm not likely to be testing Samxon's products any time soon.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Here?







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[Big Pope]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Just want to provide a little informations of Samxon capacitors, attached with Samxon series chart here.

[gonzo0815]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Shure, i know what you want to say Pete, but if we talk abouth ultra lowest ESR caps, i think you may agree, that ultra reliability is not the focus on sutch caps.
And from my point of view, regardles of the brand.

So even if i have used some MCZ caps in (Fortron) PSU`s, you will probably not see me doing this in something other than either a low end office system or similar less demanding & not mission critical applications.

But for board VRM recapping i think most board developer have already made this decision, regardles if we appreciate it or not.
Most actual VRM`s are desinged with lowest esr parts to drop the component count, not to make it working better.
There is usually no choice wheter to use them or not, as a recapper (even if some boards like the above mentioned will haplily work with the others).
So in this particular spreadsheet, i think if Nichicons HZ series is mentioned, Samxon GA`s are wort to put in too.
After the HM nightmare, i would say that similar problems could easily repeat, if the produktion is outsourced and not under permant control of the mother company.
This is similar with Panasonic FM`s, wich are produced in Malaysia and are therefore mutch cheaper than the Japnese made FC`s (and may be, the water solution is cheaper than the Panasonic FC`s elektrolyte).
And shure, on the higher end water based caps, there is probably a lot more things wich can go dramatically wrong.

From an engineers point of view, if your application`s budget can afford it, a bunch of long endurance caps is always better than a few ultra low esr parts.
And i think badcaps.net forums does reflect this very clearly

[gastorgrab]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Would this be correct?



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[gonzo0815]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

I think so, even if the endurance of FM, ZLG and GD & GC are somehow very different.
In the end they may be reflect the difference of the manufacturers know how or longterm experience in those longevity ratings.

[Big Pope]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Samxon GC is same grade as MCZ, HN and KZJ.

[gastorgrab]

Re: Better caps than UCC LXZ?

Like this then?




Funny that there doesn't seem to be a 'GB'.

--edit--

Or this?


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