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    Bad motherboard or CPU?

    Specs:
    HP Pavilion a810n desktop
    AMD Athlon64 3300+
    Asus K8S-LA motherboard
    Integrated graphics (SiS)
    Integrated audio (Realtek)
    Out of warranty: 2 years old

    When I first got the computer it worked perfectly. 8 months into it, however, I began having occasional problems where one or twice a week it would randomly crash to the BSOD. I assumed it was a software issue so I reinstalled Windows XP Home (OEM at the time) and it appeared to resolve it. As it turns out that was just a coincidence.

    A few weeks later it picked up again, and as time has progressed the problems have become increasingly worse until recently:
    * Crashes to the BSOD at least three times in a row at every cold boot.
    * BSODs at least 5 additional times per day.
    * Will randonly fail to load drivers for random devices.
    * At least 20 Win32 errors a day concerning random programs.
    * 5-10 times a day the system will freeze for a few seconds to a few minutes. The audio continues to work but all video freezes, as do all peripherals.
    * Several times a week the system registry is corrupted, and I have had to use the Recovery Console 9 times in the past month to get Windows to boot due to missing system files.
    * Cannot burn CDs or DVDs any longer...error message states it has been disabled on the drives.
    * Cannot play video DVDs...they are 'recognized' as blank discs only.
    * 19 different BSOD STOP codes, including IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL, NTFS_FILE_SYSTEM, PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA, KERNEL_STACK_INPAGE_ERROR, SYSTEM_THREAD_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED, PP0_INITIALIZATION_FAILED, KERNEL_MODE_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED, ATTEMPTED_TO_WRITE_READONLY_MEMORY, BAD_POOL_CALLER, DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL, RESOURCE_NOT_OWNED, ATTEMPTED_EXECUTE_OF_NOEXECUTE_MEMORY, NDIS_INTERNAL_ERROR, and a vage "Fatal System Error" citing only "c000021a." There is no pattern.
    * Connected a second IDE hard drive, which had been formatted but never used, and the primary hard drive suddenly became invisible and unbootable.
    * Several times each day CPU usage will spike to 100% for a particular process as random, be it IE, Word, Belarc, a game, or even a system process. When that happens the CPU temp level will instantly jump up to 11C (from 54C to as high as 65C) and the fan speed will double. The motherboard and HD temps, however, do not increase and the case fans do not increase in speed. This continues until I manually terminate the task using Task Manager, at which time the reported temperature (be it Motherboard Monitor or any other utility) *immediately* returns to normal. Logically it should take time to return to normal if it is that hot. Leaving the case open does not make a difference and placing a thermometer next to the CPU and heatsink shows no change while this is happening. Again, odd.
    * Will occasionally fail to boot citing a failing hard drive, even though SMART tests show each and every new hard drive I have used is fine.

    All of these problems occur regardless of length of time running, normal mode or Safe Mode, running processies, or activities.

    So far I have:
    * Wiped the hard drive using both KillDisk and DBAN, then replacing the hard drive.
    * Switching from XP Home (OEM) to retail copies of 2000 Pro, XP Pro, XP Pro. x64, and Vista.
    * Disconnected EVERYTHING, including optical drives and 56K modem, except keyboard, mouse, and monitor.
    * Installing the latest drivers.
    * Replacing the IDE cables and checking all connections.
    * Moved the computer to another location and purchased a new APC UPS.
    * Ran Memtest86 and then replaced the RAM despite perfect results.
    * Ran Prime95 stress test overnight...no problems.
    * Cleaned the computer with compressed air.
    * Tested and even replaced the default 250W Hipro PSU with an Antec 450W.
    * Replaced the optical drives with known-good.
    * Run only a clean installation of Windows, with NOTHING installed or connected.

    Earlier this week it became even worse. I shut down one night and everything went smoothly, but after I booted the next morning I received an error concerning NTFS corruption. As soon as I connect my hard drive to another computer it crashes the other computer, and after reading through the Microsoft KB I have learned that I must connect it to a FAT-formatted system, renaming the NTFS.SYS file in advance, and then run chkdsk. I have not gotten around to that yet.

    After that happened I inserted another clean hard drive and attempted to install Windows (all above versions, one after the other) using FAT32 as the format of choice. each time, however, the installation would crash to the BSOD, citing random errors, during installation. If I attempt to install it using NTFS it will usually get through the installation, but still have the problems previously listed.

    I believe I have completely eliminated every possible source except for the CPU and motherboard (which I'm leaning towards), and would like assistance indetermining which one needs replaced. I cannot afford to buy a new computer or take it to a repair shop, so any help you could provide would be great.

    Gracias!


    P.S. I have looked at my motherboard's caps and none of them appear to be buldging, leaking, or separating from the motherboard.
    Last edited by mobo_or_CPU?; 12-09-2006, 11:27 PM. Reason: Add info.

    #2
    Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

    It's probable that bad caps in the Hipro 250W took out some motherboard caps as well. Recap both the motherboard and the Hipro PSU, and you should be OK. The build quality of the Hipro is probably better than the Channel-Well OEM Antec, except for the secondary caps. Hipro uses a mix of Arcon, Fuhjyyu, etc. while CW mostly uses Fuhjyyu and Teapo. All are bad, but Arcon is the worst.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

      Originally posted by linuxguru
      It's probable that bad caps in the Hipro 250W took out some motherboard caps as well. Recap both the motherboard and the Hipro PSU, and you should be OK. The build quality of the Hipro is probably better than the Channel-Well OEM Antec, except for the secondary caps. Hipro uses a mix of Arcon, Fuhjyyu, etc. while CW mostly uses Fuhjyyu and Teapo. All are bad, but Arcon is the worst.
      The Antec was retail, not OEM, though I'm not sure if that makes a difference.

      I don't see any problems with the caps and don't want to attempt recapping myself, so I'd rather simply replace the motherboard. I guess my main question is whether or not there is a chance the processor is faulty or damaged, in which case I'd replace them both with newer parts. (ie socket 939 or AM2 as opposed to 754 and PCIe instead of an AGP mobo so I have the option of installing a graphics card at a later date.)

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

        > The Antec was retail, not OEM

        They're probably sourced from C-W regardless. They're not too bad, but a recapped HiPro is probably better than a recapped C-W/Antec. Maybe I'm biased - HiPro has 12.5 mm caps on the secondary as compared to mostly 10 mm for the C-W, allowing the use of some superbly rugged caps, like the Nichicon PW on the HiPro.

        Processor damage does happen, but it is relatively rare for a processor to get partially damaged (it used to happen due to electromigration of aluminium metallization, for instance on P3 and early Athlons, but more recent K8 processors with copper metallization tend to either work perfectly or die completely). The odds are higher that you have a mobo problem - usually a bad cap in the VRM or near the Northbridge or DIMM slots.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

          What is the VRM?

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

            The VRM is the Voltage Regulator Module - the section of the motherboard circuitry that supplies and regulates the core voltage, Vcore. The highest currents are seen on the output side of the VRM (50 to 100 A), so the quality of the caps is very critical there. Most failures occur on the VRM output section.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

              Around the cpu there are a bunch of big caps. Thats the vrm, usually UCC caps. The little caps are probably OST. Im voting for bad motherboard, caps that look ok.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                Ok, some other questions:

                1.) How does Thermaltake compare to Hipro and Antec? I borrowed the Antec from another computer, so I still need to get one for this system. This weekend Newegg has a 430W Thermaltake on sale plus free shipping, so I'm giving it serious consideration. While it received a good rating from purchasers I'm wondering about the caps used in it, like linuxguru was talking about.

                2.) Does it sound like the CPU usage was actually spiking and the temperature jumping or could that have just been the motherboard glitching?

                3.) Would bad caps cause the addition of a second hard drive, set as a slave, to make the first hard drive unbootable or is there something more involved there? Same goes for the optical drives being 'locked down' mysteriously, even on a clean installation.

                4.) Since this is a motherboard problem, and errors are frequent, why would multiple tests with memtest and Prime95 not produce any errors?

                5.) How do bad caps lead to data loss/corruption?

                6.) Since I'm planning on simply replacing my motherboard, what manufacturers offer the best quality?

                Sorry for all of the questions, but I haven't built or worked on a computer since my college days (part-time job back then) so my knowledge is somewhat outdated and sketchy aside from what I have read recently.

                Gracias!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                  Connected a second IDE hard drive, which had been formatted but never used, and the primary hard drive suddenly became invisible and unbootable.
                  that would more likely be a jumper setting on the hard disks. perhaps the first hard disk is set to master only not master with slave.

                  How do bad caps lead to data loss/corruption?
                  usually they make the ram receive poor power so you get memory errors. you have already confirmed that is not the issue.

                  i have never seen a marginal cpu. cpu is either working or dead.

                  A lot of your problems seem to be from the IDE controller on the motherboard. there could be badcaps in that location or some other marginal component or indeed maybe the controller itself became defective. It would be interesting to see if you have no problem after installing an ide card.

                  in the end though you would have to recap the motherboard to see if that solves your problems. since you intend to buy a new motherboard i think that would be the best solution for you. a few crashes ok but data corruption is not something to live with.

                  presently i am looking at abit boards. i am not so up to date with the recent hardware. maybe someone else can assist. i would recommend that you buy somewhere locally where you can inspect the caps used on the board before you buy instead of buying online.
                  capacitor lab yachtmati techmati

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                    I have had a marginal cpu that tested fine on cpu only test but would fail any test involving memory. Something was bad with the chip cache. I had and Epox board that would not recognize anything on the ide channels, but all mem and cpu tests from floppy drive showed the rest of the board was fine. Recapping all the 1000uf caps fixed it. Thats why you replace all the major caps from a bad brand even if they still look good. I am now finding a significant number of caps that are not bulged, but replacing them fixes a lot of problems.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                      interesting on your cpu. i guess i have been lucky then. there might be an option to test cpu cache in one of the memory testing softwares
                      capacitor lab yachtmati techmati

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                        willawake,

                        I had checked the jumper settings and they were correct. I also tried every other possible combination with no luck. I also tried removing the optical drives and then using that IDE channel with no change.

                        One other interesting thing, though: If I remove my hard drive and boot to a Live CD it boots right up and while it does randomly close a program or stop accepting mouse/keyboard input the problems are kept to a minimum. If I can find a local store with a PCI IDE card I'll try that. CPU usage spiking to 100% and temps jumping and dropping instantaneously still puzzles me, though.

                        Anyone have any recommendations when it comes to mobos and PSUs?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                          when you reinstall your os do you use the same drivers or download new ones. are you using any ide accellerator drivers or whatever. i dont rule out that you have a hardware problem i just wonder if some software is making things worse.

                          for ide cards i would recommend one with silicon image chipset but you might also consider to have the board professionally recapped.
                          capacitor lab yachtmati techmati

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                            Originally posted by willawake
                            when you reinstall your os do you use the same drivers or download new ones. are you using any ide accellerator drivers or whatever. i dont rule out that you have a hardware problem i just wonder if some software is making things worse.

                            for ide cards i would recommend one with silicon image chipset but you might also consider to have the board professionally recapped.
                            Whenever I reinstall I wipe the drive clean and do a thorough reformat, then install the OS. I let it run with the included drivers to see how it does, and then I download/install the latest drivers from the manufacturers' websites. The problems occur regardless of which drivers I use, though. I didn't know there were special "ide accellerator drivers," so I'd have to say no to that one.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                              ok then, just checking
                              capacitor lab yachtmati techmati

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                                Sounds like a hell of a problem!! Another thing for you to know!! ASUS motherboards have a 3 year warranty!!! Call them 510-739-3777 X 5105 they will ask you your SN for the board and will know instantly what you need to do to RMA the board. I just went through it. PAINLESS unfortunately i missed my warranty period by 8 days!! GRR
                                Last edited by grand_amatic; 12-11-2006, 10:27 AM.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Re: Bad motherboard or CPU?

                                  I havent had a marginal working cpu unitl i got a strangly failed AMD Athlon 64 3200 venice from my neighbor. I have choosen the components for him (except PSu), so i would say it was all ok (Gigabyte board, Twinmos memory LC-Power 6550) from start. Now this 1,6 years old Athlon 64 have one bad memory channel or controler, wich means that it only detect memory in one channel of both. If i put the memory in the other channel there is no post. One of it`s twinmos stick was dammaged too, but board and psu are fine. I already tried it in my Asrock dual sata, and it is indead the Athlon 64 wich is bad. May be it is an dammage caused by an overvoltage transient, as his lan cable is conected at the grióund floor, and he is living in the first floor. Unfortunately, the gateway is on the same mains as the kitchen with microwave oven...

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