Replacing wet electrolytics with multilayer ceramics

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • cls
    New Member
    • Jan 2007
    • 2

    #1

    Replacing wet electrolytics with multilayer ceramics

    When I was designing ethernet cards for 3Com, my department wouldn't use electrolytic capacitors. Not aluminum, not tantalum. Tantalum performs better, but there were really bad environmental and human rights problems with the way they mine it, and eventually there were shortages. We used multilayer ceramics (MLC), surface mounted, for everything. You got as much supply bypass effect from a 2.2 uF MLC as from a 22 uF wet tantalum or any size wet aluminum. MLCs have the same wear-out mechanism as ICs, electromigration. That's why you need to pay attention to the current rating when you design them in. But it's nothing like the way electrolytics outgas and dry out.

    The interesting thing is really that modern CMOS circuitry (that's practically everything electronic) consumes its power in very short bursts. You're delivering a "DC" supply but the actual power consumption is a broadband phenomenon with much of its energy in the 100 MHz to GHz range. That's why there are bypass caps on the board at all. The voltage regulator in the power supply responds in milliseconds and the bypass caps have to fill in the microsecond and nanosecond sags. At those frequencies, the ESR of an aluminum electrolytic cap is so high it might as well not be there.

    (That's why, by the way, there is no point in putting a car stereo stiffening capacitor in a computer case. Those half farad oil cans with their hundred nanohenry leads aren't fast enough to do much but keep your power light on for a while. But they do improve the damping factor in the bass end of a fancy car stereo, by mitigating the series resistance of the car battery and fuses. Mount them next to the amp and use thick copper ribbon, not wire.)

    Later, I did a big PowerPC CPU board for a router company. The most important bypass capacitor on that board was the board itself. Many square inches of solid (except vias of course) power and ground planes 1.7 mils apart. That's got the lowest ESR of any capacitor there is. By then there were SMT MLCs in the 200 uF range. I believe small camcorders forced their development. When the PPC750L jumps from sleeping to running, it draws a current spike about 3 ns wide and about 85 Amperes high. I would assume pentium 4 and athlon 64 do the same kind of thing. With sub 1 uF MLCs and all the aluminum electrolytics you can fit anywhere near it, that 2V plane sags to less than 1.2V when that spike goes by, and the CPU crashes. And there's no difference if you remove all the electrolytics.

    In our solution, we used those multilead MLCs that you see soldered to the top of some CPU packages, the planes in the board, an assortment of small MLCs, and 100 uF MLCs near the four corners of the CPU package. The multilead MLCs are really cool: if you simulate them in a 3d field solver you can see how the inductance of each lead partially cancels out the inductance of its neighbors. Hardest part is making room for enough vias not to throw that effect away when you connect them to buried planes.

    So I wonder if anybody has tried recapping these motherboards with MLCs and copper foil, and screw the aluminum cans.
  • PeteS in CA
    Badcaps Legend
    • Aug 2005
    • 3579
    • USA, Unsure of Planet

    #2
    Re: Replacing wet electrolytics with multilayer ceramics

    High capacitance MLCCs are usually large form factor, and are very susceptible to cracking if the PCB flexes or bows. They fail short circuit, and if lots of amps go through the short, the board will get burnt (BTW, I agree that tantalum caps can be very unpleasant when they fail). Another thing to watch for with high value MLCCs is their tempco and voltage coefficient. Even an X7R can be less than 50% of its rated C with a couple of volts DC across it and a moderately high ambient temperature. Sun's practice back in the late 90s was to design a network of MLCCs, Oscons and Al Els, each part carefully placed. The smaller MLCCs were closest to the uP, with larger MLCCs, the Oscons and then the Al Els progressively further from the uP. By that time, Sun had banned tantalum caps from their products because of what happens when they fail - fire, smoke, server farm shut down, very POed customer ...
    PeteS in CA

    Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
    ****************************
    To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
    ****************************

    Comment

    • davmax
      Badcaps Veteran
      • Dec 2005
      • 899

      #3
      Re: Replacing wet electrolytics with multilayer ceramics

      It does seem that contributor cls has not looked closely at modern Ultra low ESR wet electros. If his quote were correct about the large voltage drops then many computers out there would not work. The fact is that a combination of electros and ceramics is applied to achieve correct ripple/spike tolerance for the CPU. Additionally even though wet electros fail/vent that really needs to be qualified by the quality of the product and the actual operating life at 40C to 55C, the life time is quite adequate for the majority of users.

      New VRM power supplies operating in the mega hertz region will no longer require electros of any type. Some motherboards are now coming out with these supplies.
      Gigabyte EP45-DS3L Ultra Reliable (Power saver)
      Intel E8400 (3000Mhz) Bios temps. 4096Mb 800Mhz DDR2 Corsair XMS2 4-4-4-12
      160Gb WD SATAII Server grade
      Nvidia 8500GT 256Mb
      160Gb WD eSATAII Server grade for backup.
      Samsung 18x DVD writer
      Pioneer 16x DVD writer + 6x Dual layer
      33 way card reader
      Windows XP Pro SP3
      Thermaltake Matrix case with 430W Silent Power
      17" Benq FP737s LCD monitor
      HP Officejet Pro K5300 with refillable tanks

      Comment

      • gonzo0815
        Badcaps Legend
        • Feb 2006
        • 1600

        #4
        Re: Replacing wet electrolytics with multilayer ceramics

        I doubth that it will work, to replace all Al caps with MLCC`s on any board not desinged for that. If you look into the app sheets from the SMPS controler vendors, you will see that MLCC`s aren“t always the golden bullet. And it makes development in no way easier. The problem is, that the lower the capacity, the faster the vrm response time hase to be. That can only archived by more phases or higher operating frequency. Both is not easy and very expensive. For server grade systems may be, but not for SOHO systems. And last but not least, if the apliance is caerfully desinged and good quality al caps are used, there would be not mutch grief about al caps. If a apliance have some dried up capacitors after about 10 to 20 years, i think that would be not a seriouse problem. After that time, anyone who need sutch an appliance can let it repair or has the money to buy a new one (or he has some problems with his calculation sheme). Up to now, a simple (and yet ugly, not high quality desing) 2 phase VRM with only 4 big low esr al caps and a few mlcc`s placed near the cpu can handle surges up to 65A with les than 0,1V drop, and only minor changes are required to make the drop negligible or alter the desing for higher surges.

        The only case, where al caps are not well suited, are realy mission criticallsystems like satelite and other aerospace apliances, as there is no way, to guarantee the rating and proper function of an al cap 100%. But most parst fell into that category....

        Comment

        • linuxguru
          Badcaps Legend
          • Apr 2005
          • 1564

          #5
          Re: Replacing wet electrolytics with multilayer ceramics

          The Aluminium Electrolytics on the VRM outputs are primarily meant to be low-frequency (up to ~1 MHz) filter and energy reservoir caps. The ~100 MHz range and higher current spikes are mainly bypassed by MLCCs on the CPU package, as well as those below and next to the CPU socket, with their energy being replenished from the Al electrolytics at the VRM output - the functions of the MLCCs and Al-Els are complementary.

          There is/was a trend to do away with the liquid electrolytics completely on VRM outputs, and replace them with Solid-Polymer and OSCONs. However, there have been some reliability issues with 1st-generation Solid-Polymers, so it may take a while for this transition to happen completely. Most mobo manufacturers have hedged their bets by using a combination of SPAs and ultra-low ESR aqueous electrolytics at the VRM output, sometimes with unhappy results (Dell with Nichicon HM/HN, Intel with Fujitsu SPAs, miscellaneous mobo problems with NCC KZGs). It will take a while to iron out the reliability issues with high-current, low-voltage VRMs on modern mobos.
          Last edited by linuxguru; 01-03-2007, 08:17 AM. Reason: Spelling

          Comment

          Related Topics

          Collapse

          • ChaosLegionnaire
            cracked tantalum cap on a video card. safe to apply power without fireworks?
            by ChaosLegionnaire
            please refer to the attached pics. is it safe to apply power with that tantalum cap like that without causing fireworks? i dont wanna burn a hole through the pcb as the gpu chip is on the other side.

            happened to me once before with a shorted mlcc. shorted mlcc on a vrm power phase burned a hole through the pcb power section but thankfully that was nowhere near the gpu chip. but the video card still ended up in the landfill anyway tho as the burn-through was not fixable.

            so do let me know what u think of the chipped tantalum there. thanks....
            09-08-2024, 07:05 PM
          • Cartel
            FORD 1996 ECU RECAP: Aluminum - Polymer worth bothering?
            by Cartel
            I will be pulling my crown vic ECU and recapping it. 3 in total, 47uf 16v x2 and a 10uf 63v
            I hope they havent puked yet. I was thinking of replacing them with Aluminum - Polymer thru hole caps. probably 47uf 25v and 10uf 80v
            They arent cheap. Anyone have any experience with them? Am I wasing my money on premium caps?

            Nichicon PLV series

            thanks
            06-01-2025, 04:58 AM
          • jrutla2
            Help Identifying a Tantalum Capactior!!!!! 68 C79 Please help!!
            by jrutla2
            Hello BadCaps Forum! I'm new to the group and hope you guys can help me with something. I have a 2017 Apple imac A1419 board # 820-00609-A that i'm trying to identify a capacitor failure on. The capacitor is a tantalum 68 C79. See pic attached. I've tried to figure this out using the web and unfortunately can't find the information. Can someone tell me what the Capacitance value, voltage, etc is for these 68 C79 caps are? Where could i pick up a replacement? Thanks in advance!!...
            05-03-2024, 04:00 PM
          • Antonynl
            Capacitance and voltage of tantalum?
            by Antonynl
            I have a tantalum capacitors with indicators EB 21 that measures only 22pF. See attached picture.

            Since this is a windmeter that is normally in a very high mast I would like to get the correct replacement capacitor.

            Is there somebody that can tell me what the capacitance and voltage of this capacitor are?

            I don't feel confident that I can figure this out myself after searching around

            Cheers!!
            04-14-2024, 03:19 PM
          • Perry Babin
            Tantalum Capacitors and Heat Sensitivity
            by Perry Babin
            I remember reading somewhere, years back, that tantalum capacitors are sensitive to heating on their negative terminals and using more than a minimal amount of heat could result in damage. Is this/was this ever true?
            04-03-2024, 05:28 PM
          • Loading...
          • No more items.
          Working...