Line Regulation

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  • Th3_uN1Qu3
    Believe in
    • Jul 2010
    • 6031
    • Romania

    #1

    Line Regulation

    If you disable the feedback loop of a SMPS and let it run like that, you will notice that voltage is more than double what it should be. You'll also have all the caps blow up in your face.

    Does that mean you can get double voltage out of the power supply just by using the appropriate capacitors? Well, no. The inductor will most definitely not like it, but that's not what this post is about.

    If you put a conventional unregulated power supply side by side with a SMPS, you will notice that the transformer and capacitors are several times smaller in the SMPS. "That's because the conventional transformer runs at 50Hz so it has to be bigger and the caps have to hold up the voltage for longer" you'll say. Correct. But this is only half of the truth. A 50Hz unregulated DC supply relies on a high quality transformer and a large capacitor bank to keep a steady voltage output. We won't talk about the linear regulator here, because everyone knows its mode of operation - it simply burns up excess power.

    Now, the output caps in a SMPS are smaller because a SMPS runs in the 10s or 100s of kHz, where a linear supply runs at 50Hz - 0.05kHz! However, we have overlooked one important aspect. The voltage input to the SMPS is still 50Hz!!! And yet, the primary capacitors located after the bridge rectifier are still much smaller than would be required for a linear supply of the same power.

    Back to our "double voltage" power supply. Suppose you have installed higher voltage caps and the inductor doesn't get hot. You connect an audio amplifier to this power supply you just made. Result? An impressive amount of line frequency hum. How did this happen you might ask?

    Because of the small primary capacitors, the DC voltage entering the SMPS transformer has 10-20 volts of 50Hz ripple riding on top of it. 20 volts of ripple. You read that right. Now, assuming the primary to secondary turns ratio of the transformer is 10:1 (just to keep things simple), the ripple appearing at the output would be 10 times smaller. That is still 2 volts of ripple, which is unacceptable. The output filter of the SMPS will remove very little of that because it is designed for a much higher frequency.

    Here's where the control loop comes into play. The fast feedback loop basically "rides" the 50Hz ripple, along with any other fluctuations that might appear on the line, and continuously adjusts the duty cycle of the switching transistors, to maintain a steady voltage at the output. Now, this voltage it rides doesn't come out of nowhere. This is why the peak voltage available at any given moment must be significantly higher than is required at the output - the largest disturbance that the control loop can correct is given by the voltage reserve available at the transformer. This is also why you see diodes with peak voltage rating of 100 volts on a 12 volt rail.

    I hope you have now understood another aspect of SMPS operation.
    Originally posted by PeteS in CA
    Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
    A working TV? How boring!
  • goodpsusearch
    Badcaps Legend
    • Oct 2009
    • 2848
    • Greece

    #2
    Re: Line Regulation

    Thank you very much for your great articles!

    Comment

    • Longbow
      Badcaps Veteran
      • Jun 2011
      • 623
      • USA

      #3
      Re: Line Regulation

      Originally posted by Th3_uN1Qu3
      If you disable the feedback loop of a SMPS and let it run like that, you will notice that voltage is more than double what it should be. You'll also have all the caps blow up in your face.
      That is because the supply is no longer regulated by the negative feedback loop in the supply. Open loop, the output voltages will be higher, but the supply will essentially be useless, even if you put higher voltage caps in the secondary.
      However, we have overlooked one important aspect. The voltage input to the SMPS is still 50Hz!!! And yet, the primary capacitors located after the bridge rectifier are still much smaller than would be required for a linear supply of the same power.
      Not really. Primary filters are generally the largest cap in a SMPS. It depends upon the required output VA of the supply. The cost/weight savings in a SMPS result from a smaller transformer, not by using smaller caps.
      Back to our "double voltage" power supply. Suppose you have installed higher voltage caps and the inductor doesn't get hot. You connect an audio amplifier to this power supply you just made. Result? An impressive amount of line frequency hum.
      Maybe, but more likely your supply is now oscillating at some unknown frequency much higher than its design specification. The point is that you cannot predict whatever is produced at the secondary because there is no regulation. Note that the positive feedback loop (most designs) is still in place. Every SMPS will do something different because there are several common configurations, not just one.

      Because of the small primary capacitors, the DC voltage entering the SMPS transformer has 10-20 volts of 50Hz ripple riding on top of it.
      Regardless of what device we are discussing, the ripple voltage will depend upon the load. No load, no ripple voltage. You are not going to get 50% AC ripple (assuming the usual 200 uf input filter) unless there is a significant load current.

      The fast feedback loop basically "rides" the 50Hz ripple, along with any other fluctuations that might appear on the line, and continuously adjusts the duty cycle of the switching transistors, to maintain a steady voltage at the output.
      I'm afraid you have it backwards. The negative feedback loop in a SMPS is specifically damped by the secondary filter caps in order to follow relatively slow output voltage variations. These variations have nothing to do with the AC input ripple on the primary, because the AC input ripple on the switching device has no effect on its ability to saturate and turn off. The "ripple" appearing at the secondary is actually the newly created frequency that the SMPS was designed to produce - maybe 30KHz to 100KHz for example. The only time the feedback loop starts responding at high frequencies, is when the secondary filter caps go bad and stop filtering the high frequency secondary ripple - that is when your SMPS stops working.

      An interesting contrast to the more common buck/boost SMPS designs is the class D design. Class D output voltage can be very tightly controlled on a cycle-by-cycle basis. The tradeoff with this design is that there will be more inherent switching ripple. In fact, you must begin the class D design process by specifying how much ripple your load will tolerate.

      So, pulling the negative feedback from a typical SMPS will usually destroy it because the secondary caps can't deal with the higher output voltages. Most common SMPS failures: bad secondary caps followed by bad secondary rectifiers. These failures, in turn, may cause the primary switching device to fail also. Least likely, but most often replaced item: switching transformer.
      Last edited by Longbow; 06-05-2011, 11:00 AM.
      Is it plugged in?

      Comment

      • Th3_uN1Qu3
        Believe in
        • Jul 2010
        • 6031
        • Romania

        #4
        Re: Line Regulation

        Originally posted by Longbow
        Primary filters are generally the largest cap in a SMPS. It depends upon the required output VA of the supply. The cost/weight savings in a SMPS result from a smaller transformer, not by using smaller caps.
        You definitely haven't seen the latest marvels of chinese engineering...

        Originally posted by Longbow
        Maybe, but more likely your supply is now oscillating at some unknown frequency much higher than its design specification. The point is that you cannot predict whatever is produced at the secondary because there is no regulation.
        Um, if you run it without a feedback loop, what is there left to oscillate?

        Originally posted by Longbow
        Regardless of what device we are discussing, the ripple voltage will depend upon the load. No load, no ripple voltage. You are not going to get 50% AC ripple (assuming the usual 200 uf input filter) unless there is a significant load current.
        Of course.

        Originally posted by Longbow
        I'm afraid you have it backwards. The negative feedback loop in a SMPS is specifically damped by the secondary filter caps in order to follow relatively slow output voltage variations.
        The negative feedback loop is "damped" by its compensation. The capacitors are there to damp the output inductor.

        Originally posted by Longbow
        the AC input ripple on the switching device has no effect on its ability to saturate and turn off.
        I never said anything like that.

        Originally posted by Longbow
        The "ripple" appearing at the secondary is actually the newly created frequency that the SMPS was designed to produce - maybe 30KHz to 100KHz for example.
        Plus the ripple at the input, divided by the transformer turns ratio and the gain of the error amplifier.

        Originally posted by Longbow
        The only time the feedback loop starts responding at high frequencies, is when the secondary filter caps go bad and stop filtering the high frequency secondary ripple - that is when your SMPS stops working.
        The feedback loop never responds to the switching frequency as it is mathematically impossible for it to do so (it doesn't meet the Nyquist criteria). Nyquist's sampling theorem says that you need to sample (at least) with the frequency 2*f to properly reproduce a signal of frequency f. But the math is assuming perfect filters which don't exist in the real world.

        Audio CDs got away with 44.1kHz because the human ear isn't particularly sensitive to high frequencies, but the ongoing trend is towards higher sampling rates.

        In a SMPS application the switching frequency is the sampling frequency. So, the feedback loop can at most, have a crossover frequency of half the switching frequency. However, the normal design is 4 to 5 times lower than the switching frequency, to prevent the feedback loop from picking up high frequency noise which would degrade its regulation capability. A SMPS is a very high EMI noise environment. So, the only devices in charge of filtering the switching frequency ripple are the capacitors.

        Now, as you said, the control loop senses the average voltage. When the caps start failing, the control loop's reaction is to increase duty cycle to keep the average voltage the same. But since the caps have lost their filtering ability, what this increase does is produce much higher peak voltages for the same average! Which leads to all sorts of funky stuff.

        Originally posted by Longbow
        An interesting contrast to the more common buck/boost SMPS designs is the class D design. Class D output voltage can be very tightly controlled on a cycle-by-cycle basis. The tradeoff with this design is that there will be more inherent switching ripple. In fact, you must begin the class D design process by specifying how much ripple your load will tolerate.
        Aren't you talking about current mode controllers here? Class D is a type of switching audio amplifier.
        Originally posted by PeteS in CA
        Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
        A working TV? How boring!

        Comment

        • Evil Lurker
          Warranty Voider
          • Feb 2011
          • 454

          #5
          Re: Line Regulation

          Ok I have a couple questions...

          What are the purpose of common mode chokes on the input side? Ya know, those little thingys with two identical coils of copper wire side by side. How are they properly sized?

          What is the purpose of putting a couple various sized SMD resistors between the line and neutral? I see these all the time on SMPS anywhere from 100 to 500ohm or more.

          Also how do you size X and Y caps?

          Comment

          • Th3_uN1Qu3
            Believe in
            • Jul 2010
            • 6031
            • Romania

            #6
            Re: Line Regulation

            Originally posted by Evil Lurker
            What are the purpose of common mode chokes on the input side? Ya know, those little thingys with two identical coils of copper wire side by side. How are they properly sized?
            They keep nasties from the power supply from coupling back into the power grid. Their size depends on the current that the supply draws (obviously, since all the input current passes thru them), and the operating frequency of the supply. The higher the operating frequency, the smaller the EMI filter needs to be.

            You can find a chapter on EMI filters in any SMPS book, but if you really want me to post some examples here then i'll do that later.

            Originally posted by Evil Lurker
            What is the purpose of putting a couple various sized SMD resistors between the line and neutral? I see these all the time on SMPS anywhere from 100 to 500ohm or more.

            Also how do you size X and Y caps?
            I think you mean 100 to 500 kohm. A 100 ohm resistor across a 230v line is called a toaster. Those resistors are found in a number of places for several reasons. They serve to discharge the primary caps (for the safety of us who service them). Sometimes you will find them across the X caps as well.

            X and Y cap sizes depend only on operating frequency of the supply. The coupling cap in bridge topologies is a component of the power supply not the filter (although it usually is a X class cap), and that is sized according to frequency, power output and permitted voltage drop.
            Originally posted by PeteS in CA
            Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
            A working TV? How boring!

            Comment

            • momaka
              master hoarder
              • May 2008
              • 12164
              • Bulgaria

              #7
              Re: Line Regulation

              Originally posted by Th3_uN1Qu3
              Those resistors are found in a number of places for several reasons. They serve to discharge the primary caps (for the safety of us who service them).
              Yes, but for some power supplies that have the two large 200v caps in series, they also serve another purpose - they balance the voltage across the 200v caps. This is needed if the power supply uses single or 2 transistor forward design and the voltage doubler is not used (220-240v countries or APFC).

              Comment

              • Th3_uN1Qu3
                Believe in
                • Jul 2010
                • 6031
                • Romania

                #8
                Re: Line Regulation

                Originally posted by momaka
                Yes, but for some power supplies that have the two large 200v caps in series, they also serve another purpose - they balance the voltage across the 200v caps.
                Yes, they also do that.

                Originally posted by momaka
                This is needed if the power supply uses single or 2 transistor forward design and the voltage doubler is not used (220-240v countries or APFC).
                Applicable for any topology of supply actually.
                Originally posted by PeteS in CA
                Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
                A working TV? How boring!

                Comment

                • momaka
                  master hoarder
                  • May 2008
                  • 12164
                  • Bulgaria

                  #9
                  Re: Line Regulation

                  Originally posted by Th3_uN1Qu3
                  Applicable for any topology of supply actually.
                  Yeah, I was thinking about that and I guess you're right.
                  Although, if the voltage doubler switch is used (110-120v mains), then those resistors shouldn't really be needed.

                  Comment

                  • Th3_uN1Qu3
                    Believe in
                    • Jul 2010
                    • 6031
                    • Romania

                    #10
                    Re: Line Regulation

                    They're still needed to discharge the caps. But it is true that some manufacturers don't fit them... don't ask me how i know.
                    Originally posted by PeteS in CA
                    Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
                    A working TV? How boring!

                    Comment

                    • Longbow
                      Badcaps Veteran
                      • Jun 2011
                      • 623
                      • USA

                      #11
                      Re: Line Regulation

                      Originally posted by Evil Lurker
                      What are the purpose of common mode chokes on the input side? Ya know, those little thingys with two identical coils of copper wire side by side.
                      Those things are noise filters which are there to prevent lots of switching noise from sneaking out of the power supply and back into the line. They are not part of the SMPS circuit per se.

                      What is the purpose of putting a couple various sized SMD resistors between the line and neutral? I see these all the time on SMPS anywhere from 100 to 500ohm or more.
                      There may be a resistor or two between the AC hot and AC neutral, but they will be upwards of 500K and as high as several meg. Most of the time they function to reduce unwanted AC noise due to ground loops in the chassis grounding circuit. RE: bleeder resistors. Bleeders are not seen in modern solid state equipment. In older tube equipment their purpose was twofold, 1)to safely bleed high voltage off the filter caps, 2) to provide a minimum load on the power supply to improve regulation. That type of high voltage supply had no regulation as we know it today, and did not need regulation. For example there might be 450v. required for the plates of vacuum tubes. Varying that voltage up or down by 25 volts would not affect the circuit operation.
                      Is it plugged in?

                      Comment

                      • Khron
                        Badcaps Legend
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 1350
                        • Finland

                        #12
                        Re: Line Regulation

                        I believe those resistors are there to discharge the X caps. I think i read somewhere, not long ago, that there needs to be some time constant in the order of a few miliseconds (RC; R = the live-to-neutral resistor (string) value; C = the value of the X cap or caps)
                        Khron's Cave - Electronics - Audio - Teardowns - Mods - Repairs - Projects - Music - Rants - Shenanigans

                        Comment

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