MSI 6340 recap

[trodas]

Some five years ago my friend Peter give my this MSI 6340 micro ATX mobo with the Duron 750 CPU. It allegedly worked, but very, very unstable. However I got intersed, because I see mainboard back from 2001 for Socket 462 processors - Duron, Athlon - that got interestingly designed Vcore regulator and mainly a polymer Fujitsu caps. The yellow ones are polymers - regardless that they have the top perforations like elektrolyte caps:



Also as they say - everything small is nice. And this board is really small, almost like just fit tomy hand:



The fact that the mainboard is unstable is understandable. It is only enough to look, what caps are on it - many bad caps like these Chhsi ones:



And these terrible caps are combined with polymers, witch is trully interesting combination, witch in the end probably allow the board to survive all the time working. At least sort of...



Near Vcore output coil, witch get pretty how when the caps in Vcore are bad, the Chhsi cap is leaking now:



...but it looks like these two good polymers hold him pretty well, so the computer somehow worked.



Except quality polymers there are on the mainboard also good caps - Chemicon KZE - as input filter caps, witch sure worked well. Even I did not trust Chemicons much, the bad batches of them are only the KZG, KZJ, TMV and TMZ series, not the KZE. And on top of that, they are nicely green:



However all that is not going to stop the instability of chipset, witch power voltage is "filtered" Chhsi terrible cap...



But all it all this looks like a decent Vcore design (for 2001):



560uF 4V Fujitsu polymers and 2700uF 6.3V Chhsi terrible caps is almone relatively qualite Vcore filtering, unless they start to break down, of course:



For rams and USB ports voltage filtering are used these bad caps Tayeh:



Of course the big problem is, when you push to big and heated coil a capacitor. This cap is really having a troubles, when the whole cascade is start to overhat:



However as you can see, bad caps are bulging even when they are long away from all typically overheating componets, like coils and mosfets:



MSI 6340 v1
--------------
2x 4700uF 6.3V d12.5 (Chemi-con KZE) -> 2x 4700uF 6.3V Panny FM d12.5 - P12347-ND
4x 2700uF 6.3V d10 (Chhsi) -> 4x 3300uF 6.3V Samxon GC d10
2x 820uF 4V d10 (Fujitsu) -> 2x 2700uF 2.5V Samxon ULR d10
2x 560uF 4V d8 (Fujitsu) -> 3x 1000uF 4V Samxon ULR d8
6x 1000uF 6.3V d8 (Chhsi) -> 6x 1000uF 6.3V Samxon GC d8
3x 330uF 6.3V d6.3 (Tayeh) -> 3x 470uF 6.3V Samxon GD d6.3
2x 47uF 16V d5 SMD -> 2x 47uF 16V Panny FK SMD d5 (16V) - PCE3397CT-ND
4x 10uF 16V d4 SMD -> 4x 10uF 16V Panny X5R SMD ceramic (4V) - PCC216CT-ND

(one polymer I added near the CPU, because it was removed and these 47 and 10uF SMD little caps I did not yet replaced, as I did not have anything to replace them with ATM)

[trodas]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

So years ago I already gather for this recap the caps, witch give me Big Pope - at lest these Samxon caps. Adding the 1000uF 4V cap increased the total Vcore output capacity to 18 300mF in 8 caps! (for example the famous Socket 462 mobo DFI Lanparty B have Vcore output wth only 4 caps and 13 200mF total capacity - and no polymers!)



Whole look at the Vcore part of the mainboard after recap:



Look at the bottom caps from Vcore and for the AGP powering:



Much smaller todays polymers (560uF was - 1000uF is) for the same voltage is really just small "bits" compared to these 3300uF Samxon GC caps near them:



On the other hand, a 2700uF Samxon URL polymers are quite big pieces of caps:



And at the end, whole look at the MSI 6340 mainboard - little mobo:




Fun fact - after powering the mobo for the first time it show up, that for whole five years the real time clock is running. And on top of that, it even show good time - only +30min, witch is for 5 years w/o usage and with desoldered caps something amazing, I did not expect that And mobo is working quite well after the recap, even that the new CPU-Z version does not detect FSB, witch is weird. But the CPU-Z autor is already asked for some info to fix this, so there is a hope that this get fixed:
http://valid.canardpc.com/vblm4v
FSB 0 is not looking really truthfully
Also is worth noting, that the mobo has a pretty detailed setup in the bios (especially considering that this is VIA KT133 chipset and SDRAMs) and even overclock possibilities, where one can choose from Default setting (100MHz) to 117MHz FSB (37MHz for PCI). However the result from this last settings (with so quality caps I did not expected and problem so I tried this right away) is, that CPU is working at 256MHz when using this setting (30x7.5) Well, there is a good deal of fun with this little MSI mobo...

[c_hegge]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

Nice job saving it

And mobo is working quite well after the recap, even that the new CPU-Z version does not detect FSB, witch is weird.

Yes, witches can be pretty weird sometimes

I think you meant to say "which is weird"

[ant3202]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

nice job saving it



yes, witches can be pretty weird sometimes

i think you meant to say "which is weird"

[tmiha71]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

On 100 MHz, SDRAM at 3-3-3-6, that's wierd too, should run 2-2-2-6 without problems...

[trodas]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

c_hegge - oh, picking on my for my bad english grammar? How easy However I worked with Franck (CPU-Z autor) to get it right and after some betawork, it was fixed and it is fixed now Frank seems to be happy too:
http://s16.postimg.org/de0le0w2t/CPU_Z_betatesting.jpg
http://s7.postimg.org/o7bs3fr4b/CPU_Z_betatesting2.jpg
http://s23.postimg.org/r92p69raz/gre...rom_Franck.jpg

So at least it helps a bit others :


tmiha71 - indeed these rams must be pretty bad. I try another ones to see, if I cannot get faster results. ATM it is mainly the FSB that is bothering me. Yet this could be ALSO related to the rams, that higher FSB did not work for me at all! Fastest they run is at 3-2-2-5:
http://valid.canardpc.com/b6saj0



I replaced the remaining 4 SMD 10uF caps with a 22uF SMD ceramics ( JMK316AB7226MLHT ) and the two 47uF 16V SMD caps with 47uF 16V SMD Nichicon CG polymers... ( PCG1C470MCL1GS )

...and added the missing JP9 jumper! Soldered it right it...

Now what is JP9 jumper on MSI 6340 you might ask? Open = 100MHz, Closed = 133MHz says PCB. But in reality it mostly did not even post and when it do, then it is still 100MHz FSB

I want to complain!

[mariushm]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

I think you're pushing it a bit replacing 10uF 16v electrolytics with 22uF 6.3v ceramics.

See http://www.yuden.co.jp/cake/categori...K316AB7226MLHT

There's quite a lot of voltage bias with that series... at 5v, you're down 40-50% in capacitance, so you're still within 10uF range.. but still...

[trodas]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

This is interesting - I must admit that I did not check that before, but I was under the impression, that at the rated voltage (6.3V) the cap give 100% of their capacitance. And when going lower, it will decrease the capacitance (and possibly other specs as well), but not that much...



But when looking at the DC Bias Voltage graph, it seems that at 6.3V, we are down by 55% of the capacitance?!
While at ~1,75V it is 100% of the capacitance and at around ~0.8V it is +8% of the capacitance?

Tell me, that I did read the graph wrong, please...

Oh, well. In case I read and understand it right, then:
- do you know, where to get same graph for electrolyte and polymer caps...?
- are there any better ceramic caps?


PS. my next intended purpose for these caps are Vcore socket support of my P4. There will be 1.2 - 1.3V, so almost perfectly optimal voltage... right or wrong?

[mariushm]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

Only ceramic capacitors have this issue with bias voltage.

NPO / C0G ceramic capacitors have the least problems with bias voltage and also have no problems with microphonics (varying capacitance based on vibrations and pressure on capacitor) but they're expensive and in small capacities.
x5r and x7r are somewhat like that picture shows, and y5v and others are much worse (but are available in huge capacities).

Generally, with ceramic capacitors, you use capacitors rated for at least 5-10 times the voltage you're gonna work with (100v rated for 12v, 50v rated for 3.3v-5v etc)

See this application note which gives more details about ceramic capacitors and their issues:

http://www.maximintegrated.com/app-n...ex.mvp/id/5527

[mariushm]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

Oh... and I forgot about the esr issue. Tantalum and ceramic are generally low/very low esr, even at low capacitances.

When replacing a 10-22uF capacitor, you have to keep in mind no matter how good that electrolytic capacitor is, it's still gonna have about 0.3-1ohm esr. At such small can sizes, the esr can't be very low.

You're replacing such a capacitor with a ceramic that will most likely be under 0.1 ohm esr, so you might cause oscillations or generally make that circuit behave badly. Even some plain linear regulators require output capacitors with minimum 0.2-0.5 ohm esr (some need higher esr only at low output currents).
Sometimes just adding a 0.1ohm esr in series with the ceramic is enough but you still have to be careful.

Again, read the post in the link above.

[trodas]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

Thanks, this is interesting link. Lesson learned:
1) choose the biggest size of ceramic cap, best 1210 size
2) bump the voltage for of the ceramic cap up, as that seems to yield better results

a 4.7uF capacitor rated at 6.3V in an 0603 package and looked at the specs at 5V and +85°C. At 5V the typical capacitance is 92.9% below nominal, or 0.33uF.

...scary...

I was under the impression that using capacitors as near their rated voltages is best. Now it looks like that there could be troubles, when going this way with ceramics.

Thanks for the heads up. Luckily, these caps are used on notably lower voltage that 5V... and the mobo still works, lol

[mariushm]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

1) choose the biggest size of ceramic cap, best 1210 size

Uhmm... yes and no.

Yes, in an ideal world you would use 1210 but in practice you have to be careful.

1210 are.. large. With bigger packages, there's a higher risk of cracking or breaking when soldering (tension in the ceramic capacitor if not making soldering properly).
Then, the bigger the size, the bigger the risk of having issues due to microphonics/piezoelectric effects ..see this faq on the TDK site:

http://product.tdk.com/capacitor/mlc.../faq00031.html

http://www.edn.com/design/components...audible-noise-



Next, larger ceramic capacitors can be damaged more easier by board flexing, variations in temperature etc they can die shorted etc

See this other tdk faq page: http://product.tdk.com/capacitor/mlc.../faq00007.html

And last, 1210 is more expensive, even 0805 are starting to be rarer and expensive because everyone moves to smaller packages.

0805 is still easily soldered by hand without using magnifying glass, 0603 is a bit small but still OK.
You can stack two ceramic capacitors and solder them, so you can just increase the capacitance that way.

One more thing but it's just not an issue generally... you have to be careful with the power dissipation in the capacitors.

[trodas]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

Well, I like the 1210 pieces, because I can handle them. Anything smaller is just too small... So I'm pretty fine with these caps there. However this got me wonder:

Sapphire Radeon HD 7870:
http://www.techpowerup.com/174858/so...een-issue.html

The cause for GPU electrical signal noise is found to be bad quality ceramic capacitors responsible for conditioning power to the GPU.

So bad ceramic caps could happen too, as you can read from respectable source. I never seen (yet) bad ceramic cap, but looks like that everything could happen and perhaps the designer just did not understand the serious voltage bias of most ceramic caps?

The industry at large learned a valuable lesson in the 1980s regarding thermal shock robustness.

Yep, they definitively need this on R9 290X cards, becuase they are heating up pretty well

[Pentium4]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

Nice job on the recap, hopefully it will give you lots of good use! Gotta love the fact that it's got good ole lead based solder too!

So, I'm guessing Chhsi and Tayeh either got bought out/changed their name/disappeared? I only see those caps on really old stuff. Pure garbage!

[c_hegge]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

Tayeh caps were usually made by Teapo (and often had the same distinctive vent stamp). I don't know whether they disappeared or merged. Either is possible. As for Chhsi, I don't know what became of them. I'm guessing they just disappeared. All I can say about them is Good Riddance.

[trodas]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

Pentium4 - thank you! I plan to use it for getting some weird HWbot scores The board had a bug, that with higher overclocking attempt end up with FSB around 33-35MHz. Now that is with everything else fully functional!
http://valid.canardpc.com/evdcpe
This almost beg for some superlow scores, lol. Sadly, for example for the 12h+ SuperPi 32M run it is still not enought! It was "only" 8h 32min, so... that is because the multiplier is too high on Duron 750 that I managed to grab. x7.5 is too much... so I painted by conductive paint all the L1 bridges and with the wire mod tried to enforce x5 multiplier ( http://s13.postimg.org/5jp7b5is7/AXP...r_settings.png ) but ATM I failed

The L1 seems to work, because in mainboard, where I can change the multiplier by switches, there I can use any multiplier I want.

But as soon, as I leave the settings on auto, the mobo (Jetway V266B) refuse to post as the MSI 6340 did. So ATM I'm stuck. It probably need to be forced by some default or startup multipler or something like this. Dunno.
Gotta investigate futher.

As the caps go, even the original caps choice are very interesting - from Fujitsu polymers, thru Chemicon KZE to Chhsi and Tayeh crap caps.
Now it get only better - mostly there are Samxons, but also polymer Samxons and on the input are there the massive Panasonics, the 10uF SMD caps are replaced by Taiyo Yuden ceramics and the 47uF SMD caps are now Nichicon polymers.

This is a caps zoo! And I still not given up on the FSB 133MHz settings. That is also because WR on HWbot by Christian Ney is 118MHz...
http://hwbot.org/hardware/motherboard/ms-6340/
(the rest is mine already, lol)

[trodas]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

mariushm - I wonder, if I need to check the capacitor voltage bias, where to look, when the capacitor product number entered after this link of yours:

http://www.yuden.co.jp/cake/categories/view_merge_pdf/ut/gc:capacitor/p:

...produce only pdf w/o the voltage bias info:
http://www.yuden.co.jp/cake/categori...J316BB7106KLHT


Not even thre I managed to find anything:
http://ds3.yuden.co.jp/TYCOMPAS/ut/specificationSearcher.do?cid=C&u=M#{%22SR2%22%3A%22MP%22%2C%22cid%22%3A%22C%22%2C%22pn%22%3A%22TMJ316BB7106KLHT%22%2C%22pg%22%3A1%2C%22u%22%3A%22M%22%2C%22rpc%22%3A%221%22}

So, a little help? I would like to know, what to expect from it at 12V

[trodas]

Re: MSI 6340 recap

Asked techsupport and recieved the pdf for the 22uF 16V 1206 Taiyo Yuden cap TMJ316BB7106KLHT:



http://www.mediafire.com/?o3o4wk8befl2gdg
https://mega.co.nz/#!qFNRnT4A!aI__Pu...6eHc4NVIS0RxAw

...

At 12V, the voltage bias is close to 75%, witch I find unacceptable. Anyone know about a around 22uF ceramic cap of size 1206, that have usably low (20, 30%) voltage bias at 12V?