Linksys SPA2102 recap question

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  • mockingbird
    Badcaps Legend
    • Dec 2008
    • 5484
    • -

    #1

    Linksys SPA2102 recap question

    Hello,

    I have a Linksys SPA2102 I'm re-capping:





    The gist of my question is can I replace the two 100V capacitors with 63V capacitors? I checked their voltages, it's 60V when the phone is on the hook and around 17V when it's off.

    Looking at the datasheet for the chip that is controlling the voltage, the SI3215, it states that it can 'dynamically' assign voltages. The question is, will the voltage go higher than 60V?

    I looked at the design suggestion charts in the datasheet as well, and they're recommending 60V diodes. Indeed the voltage on both diodes were 60V.

    The two capacitors I want to us specifically to replace them are Panasonic FC series, 63V 68uF.

    Oh yea, here are a list of the caps, if anyone is interested. This is for my hardware version with the Sipura chip. I've seen some of them with an ESS chip, the layout is different for those:

    1) 100v 27uF 8mm x 11.5mm Capxon "GF"
    2) 100v 27uF 8mm x 11.5mm Capxon "GF"
    3) 6.3v 330uF 6.3mm x 11mm Capxon "GL"
    4) 10v 220uF 6.3mm x 11mm Capxon "GL"
    5) 16V 100uF 5mm x 11mm Capxon "GL"
    6) 16V 100uF 5mm x 11mm Capxon "GL"
    7) 16V 22uF 5mm x 11mm Capxon "GL"
    8) 16V 22uF 5mm x 11mm Capxon "GL"
    Attached Files
  • clearchris
    Badcaps Veteran
    • Dec 2013
    • 687
    • United States

    #2
    Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

    I never lower the voltage, and in most cases I increase the cap voltage to get better life out of the caps. Consider that even if you are able to use lower rated caps, the life will be shortened.

    If a manufacturer spends more money on an item where they dont have to, there is usually a reason.

    My 2c.

    Comment

    • Agent24
      I see dead caps
      • Oct 2007
      • 4940
      • New Zealand

      #3
      Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

      63v capacitors running at 60v is pretty close to maximum rating... then take into account possible variations in line voltage or voltage spikes... They used 100v ones for a reason.
      "Tantalum for the brave, Solid Aluminium for the wise, Wet Electrolytic for the adventurous"
      -David VanHorn

      Comment

      • mmartell
        Badcaps Legend
        • Oct 2013
        • 3189
        • Canada

        #4
        Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

        Originally posted by clearchris
        I never lower the voltage, and in most cases I increase the cap voltage to get better life out of the caps. Consider that even if you are able to use lower rated caps, the life will be shortened.
        I was under the impression this is NOT the case as long as the cap is run below it's rated voltage all other things being equal ?

        Comment

        • mockingbird
          Badcaps Legend
          • Dec 2008
          • 5484
          • -

          #5
          Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

          Originally posted by Agent24
          63v capacitors running at 60v is pretty close to maximum rating... then take into account possible variations in line voltage or voltage spikes... They used 100v ones for a reason.
          I'm in a bit of a pinch though.

          I'm getting the caps soon, and they're genuine Panasonic FC, but the only other choice for a 100V alternative was a possible counterfeit Nichicon.

          I'll let you guys know if I run into any problems.

          Comment

          • mockingbird
            Badcaps Legend
            • Dec 2008
            • 5484
            • -

            #6
            Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

            So far so good.

            I got the caps last week, they're about a millimeter shorter than the originals (But they have a better spec, as well as more than double the capacitance). Put them in, dialed the menu a few times (asterisk four times), everything sounds clear and it looks like you can indeed use 63V caps there.

            Now I have to order a VOIP account and test all that out.

            Comment

            • clearchris
              Badcaps Veteran
              • Dec 2013
              • 687
              • United States

              #7
              Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

              Originally posted by mmartell
              I was under the impression this is NOT the case as long as the cap is run below it's rated voltage all other things being equal ?
              This is absolutely true. Look at the formulas for calculating the lifespan of an electrolytic capacitor.

              http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tec...lculators.aspx

              Rated voltage and operating voltage are a significant part of the equation.

              Comment

              • kc8adu
                Super Moderator
                • Nov 2003
                • 8832
                • U.S.A!

                #8
                Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                since a phone ringer is 90v they generate that with the smps too.
                then chop it to 20hz ac.
                if anything go up in voltage.

                Comment

                • mockingbird
                  Badcaps Legend
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 5484
                  • -

                  #9
                  Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                  Originally posted by kc8adu
                  since a phone ringer is 90v they generate that with the smps too.
                  then chop it to 20hz ac.
                  if anything go up in voltage.
                  Are you saying the voltage will go up to 90V when the ATA receives a phone call and sends the ring signal?

                  Comment

                  • mockingbird
                    Badcaps Legend
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 5484
                    • -

                    #10
                    Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                    Let me answer my own question:

                    kc8adu, you're right. The ring voltage is indeed 90V, and this probably would have blown those caps right up:



                    Additionally, this page has a good write up about ring voltages:

                    http://www.sandman.com/ringvoltbul.html

                    Modern phones should still be able to handle it if I lower the ringing voltage to around 60.

                    My next question is, line ringing voltages are AC, yet I am measuring DV on these caps.

                    What gives?
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                    • Agent24
                      I see dead caps
                      • Oct 2007
                      • 4940
                      • New Zealand

                      #11
                      Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                      Originally posted by mockingbird
                      My next question is, line ringing voltages are AC, yet I am measuring DV on these caps.

                      What gives?
                      AC with DC offset? I don't know.. but like I said, they didn't use 100v capacitors just for fun. I'm sure they would have saved money and used 63v ones if they could have.
                      "Tantalum for the brave, Solid Aluminium for the wise, Wet Electrolytic for the adventurous"
                      -David VanHorn

                      Comment

                      • stj
                        Great Sage 齊天大聖
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 30965
                        • Albion

                        #12
                        Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                        worth adding that when the phone-line is "ringing" it can push a lot of current because it was designed to drive a ringer based on a pair of counter-connected solenoids.
                        Last edited by stj; 06-23-2015, 09:55 PM.

                        Comment

                        • mockingbird
                          Badcaps Legend
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 5484
                          • -

                          #13
                          Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                          Originally posted by stj
                          worth adding that when the phone-line is "ringing" it can push a lot of current because it was designed to drive a ringer based on a pair of couner-connected solenoids.
                          Ah, interesting. So that explains why the voltage is so high. I don't mind changing the ringing voltage to 60V and leaving it there, the problem is that this ATA loses the setting after it's powered off.
                          Originally posted by Agent24
                          AC with DC offset? I don't know.. but like I said, they didn't use 100v capacitors just for fun. I'm sure they would have saved money and used 63v ones if they could have.
                          You're right, you're right.

                          I should have listened to you

                          I intend to use 100V 33uF Nichicon PW, but they're 8x15 mm which should just just barely fit (And not block the top part of the case from being screwed in) if my measuring was correct

                          Comment

                          • Agent24
                            I see dead caps
                            • Oct 2007
                            • 4940
                            • New Zealand

                            #14
                            Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                            Originally posted by mockingbird
                            I should have listened to you

                            I intend to use 100V 33uF Nichicon PW, but they're 8x15 mm which should just just barely fit (And not block the top part of the case from being screwed in) if my measuring was correct
                            Heh, don't think I'm an expert either... I make mistakes all the time.

                            Is there enough room to lean them over a bit? I've done that many times. You could even bend the legs at 90 degrees and lie them against the board.

                            Or cut a hole....
                            "Tantalum for the brave, Solid Aluminium for the wise, Wet Electrolytic for the adventurous"
                            -David VanHorn

                            Comment

                            • budm
                              Badcaps Legend
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 40746
                              • USA

                              #15
                              Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                              "My next question is, line ringing voltages are AC, yet I am measuring DV on these caps."
                              Phone line has 48VDC.

                              https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...0207bc28e0.pdf
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by budm; 06-24-2015, 10:32 AM.
                              Never stop learning
                              Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                              Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                              Inverter testing using old CFL:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                              Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                              http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                              TV Factory reset codes listing:
                              http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                              Comment

                              • mockingbird
                                Badcaps Legend
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 5484
                                • -

                                #16
                                Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                                When I take the phone off the hook I see 17VDC. I haven't had the opportunity yet to see the 48VDC for myself yet because I don't have a VOIP provider set up yet.

                                But I'll be sure to measure AC on the 100V caps (Does that even make sense)? when I have it set up and send a ring signal to a phone.

                                Comment

                                • budm
                                  Badcaps Legend
                                  • Feb 2010
                                  • 40746
                                  • USA

                                  #17
                                  Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                                  "When I take the phone off the hook I see 17VDC." that is because the line now has load on it when the phone is off the hook (phone circuit is now connected to the line, when phone is on the hook, you should then see the Voltage goes up)
                                  Never stop learning
                                  Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                                  Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                                  Inverter testing using old CFL:
                                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                                  Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                                  http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                                  TV Factory reset codes listing:
                                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                                  Comment

                                  • mockingbird
                                    Badcaps Legend
                                    • Dec 2008
                                    • 5484
                                    • -

                                    #18
                                    Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                                    Originally posted by budm
                                    "When I take the phone off the hook I see 17VDC." that is because the line now has load on it when the phone is off the hook (phone circuit is now connected to the line, when phone is on the hook, you should then see the Voltage goes up)
                                    Yes indeed. 59-60V DC when it's on the hook, curious, it should be 48V, no?

                                    It just occured to me, the other place I remember high voltage AC going through caps is the input of a PSU. So that counts as low frequency ripple, and it shouldn't stress the caps out at all (But these caps still need to be good quality, because they also pass DC for other functions).

                                    Curious, there's a "trapezoid" and "sinusoidal" option in the wave pattern. Obviously the old phones are used to the sinusoidal patterns, but I wonder of what benefit is the trapezoid wave.

                                    Comment

                                    • budm
                                      Badcaps Legend
                                      • Feb 2010
                                      • 40746
                                      • USA

                                      #19
                                      Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                                      You have long line lost, as you can see, the Voltage drops down to 17VDC with load so the line impedance is high and depends on how far you are from the phone sub-station.
                                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_and_ring

                                      http://www.smart-dev.com/texts/phone.txt
                                      Last edited by budm; 06-24-2015, 01:27 PM.
                                      Never stop learning
                                      Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
                                      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

                                      Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
                                      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

                                      Inverter testing using old CFL:
                                      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

                                      Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
                                      http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

                                      TV Factory reset codes listing:
                                      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

                                      Comment

                                      • mockingbird
                                        Badcaps Legend
                                        • Dec 2008
                                        • 5484
                                        • -

                                        #20
                                        Re: Linksys SPA2102 recap question

                                        Well, the SPA2102 has been retired in favor of the Grandstream HT502...

                                        I broke one of the lines on the HT502 a while ago because I didn't notice that I shorted a 5mm cap when I was re-capping it which caused a 20Ohm resistor to fry (Line 2 worked, but I plan to need both lines eventually). But I got around to fixing it recently by replacing the SMD resistor with a 1/4 watt through-hole part.

                                        The reason I had to chuck the SPA2102 was because of this:



                                        Maybe it had something to do with the box's link with a DHS IP which always showed up on my router.

                                        Overall, I liked the interface of the SPA2102 better, but the Grandstream is still getting firmware updates, and that crazy CPU utilization which cause me to have to reset my router frequently disappeared. The T.38 fax passthrough also never worked properly with it but that could just be my VOIP provider. We'll see with the HT502.

                                        One note of caution with the HT502: It will operate with a 5V adapter, but I am pretty certain that the crcuitry that drives the phone jacks requires a 12V adapter. I say this because while the box would boot up and show that it was connected on the 5V adapter, I didn't get a dial tone until I switched to the 12V. Could have been something else, so I'm not 100% certain.
                                        Attached Files

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