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**Agent24** · 03-04-2011, 07:01 AM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

I don't know how the Hakko stations compare so I'll let someone else answer that... Although what I can say is if you can afford a good brand like Hakko you should definitely do so. For most of your other questions....

Originally posted by veterator View Post

Tip Cleaner - Hakko makes a little station with a wire braid I was looking at

I've never used the wire tip cleaner, but I hear good things about it. I personally just use a damp sponge, which works just fine for me.

Additional Tips - I have no idea, it seems people recommend chisel tips. Could someone please link me directly to one so I can get a part number or something and tell me a little bit about why they pick it over others?

There are many style of tips, used in different ways. A large Chisel tip is recommended on the FAQ here for best heat transfer.

For normal soldering I perfer a conical tip. You may want different sizes especially if you were thinking of doing SMD work (not usually required for recapping, but you may want to build a project or something)

Solder - 60/40 is the recommendation I see, people on Amazon praise specific brands. Is there a specific kind or brand that people favor here for best results? It's very confusing after you look at about 50 different reviews saying opposite things and you're not sure what in the world they are using it for.

I've always used 60/40 and it's been fine for me. I was reading about 63/37 and would like to try it some time, apparently it's easier to use but also more expensive.

I've so far only used DSE branded solder, obviously a rebrand, not sure the OEM but I have no complaints.

No doubt it's possible to also buy cheap crap solder from some dodgy place in China, and no doubt it would be a good idea to avoid it.

Solder Sucker/Pump - This is the one everyone recommends on this forum, but this is also the stuff on Amazon and others sites where everyone says they break within a month. I'd personally rather find it locally if they all break like this...but if you know of one that lasts please point me to it. Otherwise point me to a good place to get disposable ones on the cheap...thinking Harbor Freight.

Cheap ones should be OK but make sure they are metal and not plastic. I've got a cheap metal one I bought from Dick-Smith and it's several years old and still working just fine. I've had to replace the tip but only because I stood on it and snapped it off... but after a lot of use you need to replace them anyway so make sure you can get spares later (or buy several spare tips when you purchase it)

For the record it's this one: http://www.dse.co.nz/dse.shop/en/product/T2567

Braid - again people seem to prefer pumps for results..back to square one with pumps being "junk" in most people's reviews.

For some it seems to depend on preference, but I find both are useful in different situations, so it would be wise to have and know how to use both.

Flux - Do you need it, or don't you need it? I actually see some people mention it a lot, others seem to indicate it's in their solder.....others never mention it. So..inform me on what a new guy should do here? If it's going to make it easier I'm interested, if it's going to make it a bigger pain or damage stuff...I am weary.

Typically not needed for through-hole work as the solder contains it. Make sure to use rosin-core not acid-core solder, though!

Extra flux is used typically for SMD work, where the soldering method is different to through-hole.

For recapping, it's probably not needed,

Clamps/holders/helper hands - useful enough to justify a purchase for someone who plans on doing maybe 10 separate items as of right now but not much else? I have always wanted to get a nice bright magnifier so I can sit up away from my work but still see fine without craning my neck.

Clamps are good. For holding motherboards you will need something large. Helping hands are good, not for motherboards but for other things. I use mine a lot, for all kinds of things.

Basically what do I need minimally to get started practicing and getting in a good habit/workspace setup? I won't order caps until I am really sure I am ready to at least cleanly remove caps from an already dead board..then it'll be a matter of what Im willing to possibly destroy as my first experiment.

I've attached a scanned copy of the soldering tutorial from Dick Smith's book, which is a good starting point for soldering. Obviously it's aimed at general project building on single-layer boards but the informaton still applies.

Check out this video too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_NU2ruzyc4 - One of the best on Youtube I have come across. A lot of videos I have seen get some points wrong.

For multilayer boards like motherboards and doing recapping you do need to have a slightly different method but there are tutorials etc on this forum and of course you can always ask.

Attached Files

**severach** · 03-04-2011, 12:03 PM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

Originally posted by veterator View Post

Additional Tips - I have no idea, it seems people recommend chisel tips. Could someone please link me directly to one so I can get a part number or something and tell me a little bit about why they pick it over others?

A Chisel and a Point tip (900M-T-I) covers everything I need. I have two stations to eliminate the need for changing tips and because two stations makes some jobs a lot easier.

Solder - 60/40 is the recommendation I see, people on Amazon praise specific brands. Is there a specific kind or brand that people favor here for best results? It's very confusing after you look at about 50 different reviews saying opposite things and you're not sure what in the world they are using it for.

Sorry about your bad luck. All solder is expensive. Get over it. The last 63/37 spool I bought was a MG Chemicals 1/2lb 4886-227G 0.039" at Fry's Electronics. At the rate I use it, it will last 10 years.

I have a 1lb spool of Kester SAC305 0.031" but I don't use it anywhere except for some power jacks that need to be extra strong. For everything else I use 63/37. Nothing can match the quality of work of 63/37, not even SAC305 in nitrogen. Leaded solder and lead free solder mix just fine so long as you go above the melting point of the highest melting point solder.

Avoid Radio Shack solder. I have RS solder every bit as good as Kester and have had RS solder that I couldn't solder at all with. Not enough savings to be worth the gamble.

Braid - again people seem to prefer pumps for results..back to square one with pumps being "junk" in most people's reviews.

Braid requires flux to operate. Braid works poorly with soldering through the via and with lead free solder. The amount of heat required to get all the solder to flow "up" to the braid risks board damage. Moving the lead a bit while sucking helps get more solder out. This is easy with an electric pump. It's hard with a mechanical pump or braid.

Flux - Do you need it, or don't you need it? I actually see some people mention it a lot, others seem to indicate it's in their solder.....others never mention it. So..inform me on what a new guy should do here? If it's going to make it easier I'm interested, if it's going to make it a bigger pain or damage stuff...I am weary.

For disassembly flux is better than solder because flux is a lot cheaper, can be applied to every part that will be worked on before starting, and doesn't goop up your board with bulbs of solder that needs to be removed.

For assembly 3 handed people don't need extra flux. They have 1 hand for the part, 1 hand for the solder, and 1 hand for the gun. We less than fortunate 2 handed people need flux since the only hand that can be easily eliminated is the solder hand. The solder goes on the gun and the flux goes on the part. The only place in solder flux did any good was 1 sided boards. Flux makes through via soldering a lot more reliable. The solder in the vias won't bond well without flux and flux from the solder will not travel from the top down into a via already full of solder. I drag my leads through flux and insert them. This coats the vias with flux and a little comes out on the end to make that solder good too. Proper fluxing eliminates no-connect cold solder joint failures.

Proper preheating and fluxing helps you do the work with a lower gun temperature. The lower the temperature and the more often the tip sees flux and bits of fresh solder the less often the tip needs to be cleaned. When you get in the groove cleaning tips becomes a distant memory.

4 handed people have it all because they can hold the board too.

Clamps/holders/helper hands - useful enough to justify a purchase for someone who plans on doing maybe 10 separate items as of right now but not much else? I have always wanted to get a nice bright magnifier so I can sit up away from my work but still see fine without craning my neck.

I recommend any padded clamps similar to Harbor Freight 46808. At the price there's nothing to justify and are readily available at any store that sells woodworking tools. You may already own a pair. These clamps easily hold tiny boards and large motherboards. They are cheap enough so you can buy two. They clamp to any shelf for out of the way storage.

You forgot a light. Get a clamp lamp with a GE Reveal neodymium incandescent bulb. Reading chip numbers gets a lot easier with the right light.

You also need a heat gun to make removal easier from large plane boards with lead free solder. A regulated SMD hot air gun is the best but with some care a standard heat gun or a hair dryer will work too. Keep your fingers on the other side of the board to ensure that you don't get it too hot. Preheating makes everything easier. I do all my power jacks preheating with the Aoyue 2702+ and desoldering with the Hakko 808. I preheat again at solder time so the solder comes out the other side without having to burn the board up. The regulated air gun ensures I get the fluxed leads up to temperature without melting the plastic. The preheat isn't to melt the solder. The goal is to raise the temperature of the parts so they steal much less heat from the gun which allows the gun to bring the entire via and lead up to melting temperature much more easily.

Where's your flux cleaner? Cotton swabs and brake cleaner works good. You may already own these. You'll need this to prep recently desoldered parts for soldering. Don't show everyone you do poor quality solder work by leaving black mounds of goo all over.

It's good to good quality work with expensive tools. It's even better to do just as good quality work with tools you already own.

**veterator** · 03-05-2011, 12:13 PM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

I appreciate the feedback from both of you. Some of this is a little "see for yourself" Im guessing. Like I stated previously, I am going to mess with already broken parts that I know I won't be attempting to fix since they were physically damaged beyond what would be reasonable. Just to get an idea of the right and wrong way to do things.

Some of the stuff said is like a foreign tongue, especially from severach. I wasn't complaining about the price on the solder, just some feedback on what brand and people felt was needed to this specific work. Like I said Amazon had a lot of differing opinions, and I am specific looking to replace capacitors only at this point.

Hoping someone will come along that's used both the 936 and 888 hakko units, so I can figure out if I can wait and buy an 888 later or need to try to rush and get a 936 because the 888s aren't working out as well for whatever reason.

Again thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it.

**Krankshaft** · 03-05-2011, 02:59 PM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

The color design of the Hakko 888 is the new design Hakko is now using on all of their lines.

You're right on Hakkos site says the 936 is discontinued this must have happened recently.

My Hakko FX-951 has the same case design and color scheme and it's certainly not a toy. I had the same initial reaction to the colors but in time I've come to like it.

It's like the bright yellow holster and the gray body on Fluke meters. It's symbolic and identifies the product.

The 888 is slightly better than the old 936 most notably the pencil iron on the 888 is 65 watts compared to the old 936s 50 watts. The newer model is also smaller and takes up less space. I'd say go for the new model unless you can get the old one dirt cheap.

Certainly don't overpay for the last of the 936 stock. The 888 is basically a 936 with a bit more power and a new case it would be ridiculous to pay more for less.

The 888 also does away with the 3 different size irons sold with the 936 which of course required 3 different tips for the small, medium, and large irons. This annoyed me to no end since it made purchasing tips more difficult.

Hakko's stuff is all top notch you won't be disappointed. As for Weller I usually don't buy their stuff they still use ancient wire wound heating elements in their irons. While Hakko uses printed heating elements which keep temperature tolerances very tight.

The brass shaving tip cleaner is excellent one was included with my FX-951 and love it! I've never had to worry about having a wet sponge since.

As for tips it depends on preference for through hole I tend to use a conical tip and for SMD work I use a thin chisel tip. The only time you should need flux is during SMD soldering where due to space constraints you put the solder on the tip first and transfer it to the board. Something you never do with through hole.

**Agent24** · 03-05-2011, 04:12 PM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

I just had a look at the Hakko 888, can't say I really like the shape... I prefer square things...

**smason** · 03-05-2011, 06:55 PM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

I use a Hakko 936 and an old 1978ish Weller WTCP, both work really well.
I don't think you can go wrong with either brand. That said there's a thread here in the test equp forum where several people recommend a cheap Chinese unit that seems to work for them.

Desoldering: I use a standard blue Soldapullt pump tool I've had since the 80s. I think I've changed the tip 3 times. I clean it now and then, and some vaseline around the O-ring really keeps the suction strong (insert inappropriate joke here)
It's been very reliable.
I've never liked braid, but it does work well for SMT stuff.

I JUST switched to a dry tip cleaner this weel (added the $18 Weller unit to a cap order from Digikey) man I wish I tried one sooner. Love it! Here in ALberta it's so dry you spend half your time wetting sponges...

Flux - I only use it for tricky desoldering (multi layer boards) or SMT stuff.

Solder. I have a big roll of Kester 60/40 I bought a long time ago and it'll probably still have some on it when I'm dead. On that note, they can take my leaded solder when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.

All you really need to get started (in my opinion) a decent soldering station, a desoldering pump. Decent side cutters (small) A can of Flux cleaner, an old toothbrush, maybe some dental picks, half a brain, and some practice.

Attached Files

**veterator** · 03-05-2011, 09:40 PM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

Still working on the half a brain and practice part. I do appreciate the picture there of the work tools.

And the commentary on the hakko 888 model has put me at ease a bit. The 936 while I've been watching over the last 2-3 months while I work out other stuff has ran out of stock at multiple locations, and is increasing it's price on the remaining places. So at least I know I can wait and get the Hakko 888 without worrying.

I probably need to look into getting a digital multimeter as well in the future, but gotta try to keep it within reason on the rest of things right now. Probably wait till after tax season is over with and figure out where I stand then before I buy anything.

But I really do appreciate all the comments, and if anyone has any recommendations on anything I am more than willing to hear them.

At this point I figure I'll be buying:

Hakko 888 unless I can find a killer deal on a 936, which is looking less than likely.

Not sure what the standard tip on the 888 is, so I'll probably get a longish conical tip and a chisel since a lot of people keep mentioning the chisel for holding heat.

A solder pump.

Kester 60/40 solder since I've seen it mentioned twice. Once I get better I might consider getting the higher quality stuff to have options.

Tip cleaner, the wire mesh stuff.

Already got some side cutters I think will work out OK. If I find out otherwise not a huge ordeal to fix.

Flux .......maybe to mess around with a bit and try to re-solder on caps I remove just to see how screwed up it gets on broken boards. Can't test it to see if it still works, but can see what happens when you do things wrong.

Probably wait on the dental picks until I see how the solder sucker works out.

Clamps and holders will probably have to wait until I see how everything goes.

Heatguns and all the other stuff, I'll guess Ill have to wait and see if I think they would help me or not.

That seem like a fair enough appraisal of the situation over all in terms of what I should get starting out and keep the rest at the back of my mind?

**stretch0069** · 03-06-2011, 01:36 AM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

not that I can add much here, but I had a Hakko a while back. Don't remember the model#, but it was excellent quality and worked like a charm. I actually used it to replace a Socket370 ZIF socket.

Now I have a honkin' huge Pace rework station. Nice thing is that you can still get parts for the Hakkos.

as for the rest....i won't rehash the excellent advice already given.

**buz** · 04-06-2011, 11:18 PM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

Maybe this is as good a thread as any for my question. It boils down to too many 'opinions' regarding the best wattage weapon to use. Reading through the FAQs and other 'how to' threads it appears using a 60-65w iron is best. Some of the info from the links recommends 25w- 50w though.

If I'm not mistaken, badcaps recommendation of a 60w iron was strenuously suggested.

My question, would a 40w iron be enough or should I take badcaps opinion?

**yyonline** · 04-06-2011, 11:37 PM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

As long as you have a temperature controlled iron, you can't have too many watts. My Hakko 937 (936 with a rather pointless LED display, but hey I got it cheap) is 50 watts, and it's plenty for most applications. However, for motherboard work, it's merely adequate. Some boards have lots of copper and take quite awhile to heat up to the point where you can melt solder through the holes.

You can get by with less, but having good tools makes the job much less frustrating, especially for a beginner.

**buz** · 04-07-2011, 12:54 AM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

Thank you yyonline - I'm a total novice, gonna attempt a PSU and need to gather up the basic tools. I don't know if I'll ever do it again but who knows. So it sounds to me more wattage is better (to a point). Reason for asking is there's a 40w I can pick up locally (local building supply) but if a 50w or 60w would make the job easier for a noob then I better shop.

**Agent24** · 04-07-2011, 01:29 AM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

You won't need anything special for a PSU unless it's one of the new high-powered ones with a double-layer board and a lot of stuff jammed in and a huge ground plane..

For any standard PSU with a single layer board any standard iron will work, as long as you use it properly - see: http://store.curiousinventor.com/guides/How_to_Solder/

For single layer boards I've used a basic 25 watt Scope iron for many years.

**bigbeark** · 04-07-2011, 08:19 AM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

My suggestions:

Get the Hakko 888. I have the 936 and it works fine. The new model has more power and that's good. When soldering motherboards, I generally have the 936 at or near the highest setting.

Older motherboards have heavy copper traces and really soak up the heat.
The solder on old boards flows nicely though.

Newish boards have horrible lead-free solder that is hard to melt. You have to add new solder (or flux) to the old on these things to get the old caps out. You need heat.

I have two $20 50-watt no-name irons, but they are crap - the lifespan is about 6 months before they burn out.

I use the chisel tip. Important - NEVER clean the tip with abrasive material
like sandpaper or steel wool. You will rub off the coating and the underlying copper tarnishes constantly.

I have the brass-wire Hakko cleaner, never use it. I have a small tin of HAKKO liquid tip cleaner which works really well. Mail-ordered both from a vendor is Los Vegas! Good proce and very good service.

Most important of all is PATIENCE in removing old caps! If the cap seems hard to budge, DO NOT YANK on it. Apply more solder/flux until the cap GLIDES out of the hole.

I used to use solder-suckers, now I exclusively use the "pin" method to install new caps. I place the tip of the iron against the hole and push the pin through from the other side. If I keep the pin moving it doesn't stick. I found a nice headed pin in the wife's sewing basket. I later bought an assortment off Ebay for $3 - lifetime supply.

I used my solder sucker continuously for a year, never gave any problems. If you buy one it should have a metal body. I bought one off Ebay, it came with some lead-free solder that wasn't bad at all. I went to the pin because it's a faster method and doesn't suck all the solder off the board.

MOST IMPORTANt IS TO HAVE A WAY OF HOLDING THE BOARD. You need two hands to remove ans intall caps. I built a simple wooden frame of 1x2 spruce strapping. I attach the motherboard to the frame with short woodscrews, and then clamp the frame to my work table with a woodworkers spring clamp.I do the removal and initial install of the new caps with the board held vertical so both sides are accessible. Then I remove the clamp, turn the board over so the soldetred joints are facing upward and go over each joint. I then trim the cap legs so they are 1/8 inch or less in length.

Use an old Pentium 2, Pentium 3 or Socket A board as your learning piece. You want a working board for which you have a CPU, heatsink, some ram, a video card and a little speaker that connects to the SPKR pins on your motherboard. Hook up a power supply and start the board by putting a screwdriver blade accross the PWR pins on the motherboard. The board should POST as indicated by the beeps from the little speaker.

Try removing and replacing the bigger caps and verify that the board still POSTs. Go over your joints if it doesn't. When you can remove and replace caps and the board still works, you are ready to move on to motre modern boards.

**buz** · 04-07-2011, 08:21 AM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

Thank you Agent24. That was enough for me to decide on what to get. Found a second video there that regarded how different wattages fare working different materials/components:
http://store.curiousinventor.com/gui...er/select_iron

Edit: Thank you Bigbeark - lots of good info too.

**Agent24** · 04-07-2011, 08:36 AM

Re: Starting out, inexperienced solderer.

To start off with a standard iron would be OK, if you want to do advanced stuff get something better later on.

The basic iron will still be useful to you most likely for other things though.

I have two of the MH25 http://www.warrenandbrown.com.au/Pre...t&ProductId=37

They are cheap and basic but not junk. The ones I have are about 7-8 years old and still work perfectly.

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