Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

[370forlife]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

Well, i bet you the specific teapo series have lower esr than the sanyo's or nichicon's, not to mention if this is a completely different board no two boards act the same.

[Topcat]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

I just want to reach 175MHz FSB, and I was like first 150mhz with some nichicon 1500uF, then sanyo 2200uF with the VRM to CPU, but 1500uF for the RAM & and I suppose the chipset...and now I have the Teapo with all 2200uF all over the board and I have 166mhz FSB stable (which gives approx 1250mhz for the CPUs)...I guess that this really is related to the capacitance of certain caps on certain spots mounted to the board.

Sorry, I've got to raise the BS flag on this one. I've ran them at 150~155FSB before, with massive amounts of cooling, and it ran somewhat stable. Much above that, even with engineering sample cumine CPU's, they would post once in a while, but never run. it wasn't the caps causing this, it was just beyond the capabilities of the processors. 175FSB? Ain't gonna happen, regardless of what caps you use. Tualatin CPU's (which the VP6 doesn't support) had a lot of overclocking capabilities, but that would even be too much for them. Coppermine, nope....not going to happen. I won't even get on the topic of what happens to PC133 when you try pushing it past 150MHz.

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

Got Tonicom 128MB Single-sided PC166 SDRAM in it and the 166MHz FSB has been reached as stable for 95percent, the hard drive sometimes turns it self off (but its 6 year old, so i'm not surprised), but anyways the board is stable enough...I once reached 170FSB and booted into winxp...but just for a while ...running it on 1.90v, anyway I did the Vss mod on them, but it wasn't necesarry to run them above 2v...I just think that it could be acheived, and since I have 6 of them (i will post what brand of caps they all have), I need to check out the current details on them, measure the impedance and stuff...just to be sure if it isn't something else...but as I said, I have 6 of them, 5 recapped, 1 original, never turned on. 3 of them can't reach 155mhz stable, using various capacitance caps; 1 has the the green circled area 1500uF 16v caps and the other one has 2200uF 6.3v - the first one is very unstable at 166mhz FSB, the latter is performing all the desired things - very stable. There are NO other modifications or parts replaced on them, maybe the bios revisions differ, but again, I gotta check...really I DO trust you guys talking that only the ESR means something to OC, but I say it's all together, but mainly the capacitance...I need to study the theory more thoroughly, because I still don't understand a lot of things - just getting the pure field experience

[i4004]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

>The reduced ESR is a function of the can size, not the capacitance.

sure, but higher capacitance usually means bigger can...
<wink>

so in the end there is a relation between capacitance and esr...and esr goes down as capacitance goes up(yes, can size goes up too).
everybody here with an esr should of know that.

shodan ,so what's the max freq. and on which cpu?
not the fsb, but cpu clock....i don't wanna calculate...hehe...

[Topcat]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

Lets see some screen shots of this.

[kc8adu]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

yes.screen shots.
iirc the best i got on ANY vp6(the poly modded one) was 160 fsb.
this is mprime/prime95 stable 48 hrs.
and this is with hand picked and tested parts from a huge lot i bought.
being able to boot means nothing.i have to be able to use it 24/7/365 without issues.

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals




So basically this represents the current setting of the machine. In bios, I just set CAS to 3, Medium setting on the banks speed, memory latch is 0.5 and manually set interleave to 4-way. Voltage (in BIOS !!!) is Vcc3.3 - 3.6v and Vcore is 1.90v, though the opposite is shown in Everest.

I will run prime95 when I get back to work and leave the PC there for at least 1 1/2 day, but I get some little trouble with HDDs, i guess it's the cranked up PCI frequency or the drive itself and of course the, I suspect, overloaded 5v supply rail. But so far by playing Rainbow Six LV2, painkiller, flatout, HAWX and many more PS2.0/3.0 games I have had no problems, just the drive...

So just see these preview pictures, in 3 days we'll see the requested results. Merry Christmas guys, thanks for all the advice.

[gdement]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

>The reduced ESR is a function of the can size, not the capacitance.

sure, but higher capacitance usually means bigger can...
<wink>

so in the end there is a relation between capacitance and esr...and esr goes down as capacitance goes up(yes, can size goes up too).
everybody here with an esr should of know that.

I don't doubt you knew this already, but I wanted to clarify for shodan since can sizes vary.

Your conclusion to me still sounds backwards regarding cause and effect, but I guess you think differently than I do.

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

I guess your last sentence, gdement, is addressed to i4004, right?

A new thought (and a question) has popped in my head (based what I found on ebay):

16v 6800uF ordinary VS 16v 1800uF ULTRA low ESR - Which of them is better and why? Because we're talking here the bigger the capacitance, the lower the ESR. And now I'm confused a bit, why are some ULTRA low and some are only low ESR. Is there a difference in manufacturing?

[i4004]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

gdement, i agree with you, my comment was mainly because bonez words left something to speculate, as he said:

"More uF improving performance is an old wives tale.
It doesn't help at all. - Lower ESR does."

he didn't mention that esr will go down on same series of caps if can size(and also capacitance usually goes up with can size....<wink>) goes up.

and oh yeah, esr is also function of chemistry, ie polys have small cans, but pretty damn low esr....some new lytics have lower esr than previous models of same can sizes etc.
-----------
shodan, your best friend with such issues would be esr meter, and then you check for yourself...
question you presented is interesting one, but only way to answer it would be to compare datasheets or measure mentioned caps(which is something i would prefer to do...but don't have such caps)...

something else; i said that esr will fall, but i said on same series...i would guess that GP caps probably can't reach low-esr of these low-esr types no matter how big of a can(and capacitance) you have....

yes, there is a difference in manufacturing, low and ultra low esr caps actually use different types of electrolyte to gp(general purpose) caps and are more expensive because of that....
if everybody used the same type we probably wouldn't have "capacitor plague" that we had...when some stolen formula for low esr electrolyte was poorly copied, and as a result those caps went bulging...

everything said, your best bet for overclocking would be low esr caps of good brands and also somewhat higher capacitance than originals(because can size brings esr further down)...
but you figured out that one by now, right?
<wink>

i would suggest a probable solution why topcat and kc didn't have such overclocking results as you; they used good caps, but probably didn't up the capacitance(can size), and ergo didn't reach the low esr of your setup.
ergo you can overclock more...although other things affect overclocking, like bios settings, type of ram, also, cpu model/stepping etc.
perhaps that makes sense...

as for the issue of does capacitance ITSELF(till now i was discussing relation of capacitance(can size) and esr) improve overclocking, i dunno.
test should be done with caps of same esr, but one with higher capacitance, and then see how it behaves....
i recently mentioned(in another thread) how it would be interesting to go REAL high with capacitance on cpu vrm, just for the hell of it, to see what will happen and on which point...
i don't think much testing has been done to that extent.
(i myself don't care much about overlclocking so i won't be doing it)


either way, only way forward is to keep experimenting.

oh yeah, the esr and capacitance meter if you wanna do it:
http://preher-tech.com/esrmicro.aspx
contact mike.

good luck

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

Adding a crazy question (related to VP6's CPU VRMs):

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-Rubycon-MBZ-6-...item3ca69e7a15

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rubycon-6800uF-6...item2ea9c952fb

This is just a blind shot, but according to your experiences & wisdom, wich would give me higher overclocking results? By knowing ESR goes down as capacitance goes up ...

[i4004]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

something to re-iterate from above:

"something else; i said that esr will fall, but i said on same series...i would guess that GP caps probably can't reach low-esr of these low-esr types no matter how big of a can(and capacitance) you have...."

(but yes, that's just a guess...)

like i said, get esr meter and measure. i don't have those caps, nor means to measure them precisely enough...

i kinda buy faster cpu, i don't overclock.

if you posed this question to all of us, i doubt you'll get much answers, because less people are experimenting with gp caps on cpu vrm...
it's kinda uncharted territory...

some were saying it works for them (for example member by the nick of "rainbow"), but they weren't upping the capacitance, if i remember correctly....

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

okay, thanks....I guess I'll need to perform some really BIG experniments Will be posting them in a while though...anyways thanks, I think there is nothing more to discuss.

[i4004]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

safety first...wear goggles etc.
<wink>

and oh yeah, don't be surprised if you blow the mosfest of vrm...

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

will be properly cooled, I got enough airflow at that spot, but I'm planning to put some very tall heatsinks on it...anyways googles are too much I think, but anyways I recall that intro from Fallout 2 , if you know what I'm saying...

[i4004]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

at least apron?
hehe....

but it shouldn't be that dangerous, just do it in smaller steps...don't start with biggest you have...

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

btw !!!. The PC is unstable...I'm running stress test in Everest ultimate version and it blips BSOD with the very same thing, stating EVICE_IRQ_NOT_EQUAL I think....so I figured out that it may be the PCI bus arbitration, and have 2 possible causes on mind:
Not enogh power for the PCI bus OR some of my cards may fail due to higher PCI frequency. I'll try to remove some cars which I don't need right now and see what happens.

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

So...currently I'm testing my two best recapped boards, but they have a serious difference and act very differently... the one with all 2200uf caps has VTT 1.5v, but the other one with the green circled grup with 1500uF has Vtt 1.9 (!!!)... I know this is the termination voltage for FSB and probably the voltage of the FSB itself (AGTL), but how come they have it different??? The other thing is : The one with higher vtt voltage is only stable when a put some medium agressive settings on the RAM, when I set everything to default ,the system is totally unstable...the one with 1.5v vtt is ok...

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

New conclusions will be brought soon about this whole experiment, I have found out some serious things , just need to affirm some stuff, at 6am GMT I'll update you all.

[Shodan486]

Re: Abit VP6 using different caps than the originals

Gosh guys, I'm dead, leaving home, so wait a bit longer...