The 2018 Operating System thread

[Stefan Payne]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Scratch the Irwindales. Apparently NX bit isn't the only CPU-specific requirement:



Not sure if Windows 8.1 cares about those... Or if 940 Opterons are supported. Edit- Yup, 8.1 requires them too. But only for x64... Gee, that's helpful. X32 on a 16GB RAM system On the upside, anything newer than Netburst (or AMD64, Both were originally things AMD has in the Opteron) has them, so only my old Irwindales (or Paxvilles, for that matter) are hit.

Oh well, Windows 7 it is (if it wasn't a living room rig, perhaps I'd arch x64 it and call it a day).

Windows 10 x32 will work on those...
Or you can replace them with newer stepping ones...


According to this article on Superuser, you need a "G1 Stepping" Netburst CPU.

https://superuser.com/questions/9317...efetchw-and-la

WIth AMD:
You need a DDR-II SDRAM model at least.
The older DDR-I SDRAM don't support that either.


€dit:
ahhh...
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Xeon/I...KG3600EA).html

There you can see the "G1 Stepping".
So I assume that 65nm ones support that probably...

[momaka]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Exactly. Primary = most important (?)

I suspect most folks would consider their PHONES to be "more important" (as in, "if I had to live with just one of these, which would it be?") than their COMPUTERS -- yet the poll would lead them to thinking in terms of the latter!

On any other forum, that may well be the case.

But remember, this is badcaps.net - there's quite a few of us here who would happily ditch our phones in favor of a proper desktop. Seriously. (As a matter of fact, I have a dumb phone, and I rarely use it.)

Also worth mentioning is that this thread is in the "General Computer Discussion" section... meaning we are discussing PCs here, not set-top box and phone OSs.

That's why Topcat needs to reset his prefetch!

Hmmm... Interesting you mentioned that. Maybe that's why my XP machines boot so quickly??? After all, I delete old Prefetch data with CCleaner daily when I shut down my PCs.

win7 on a half decent CPU + SSD, even a fresh XP install cant touch that!

Well, I've noticed that Windows 7 boots to the Login screen quicker, but then continue to do lots of reading/writing to the HDD afterwards, so IMO that's an indications that it hasn't finished booting completely.

Windows XP is the other way around - it takes longer to get to the Login screen. But on a clean XP install, once the Login screen appears and the user logs in, there's hardly any HDD activity after that.

Lack of support is the biggest strike against XP IMO (mainly browsers).

That's true, unfortunately, and probably what will make me switch to Win7 in a year or two.

It was definitely a trooper, but sadly, the sun has set on it for mainstream use.

It has indeed.
Nonetheless, if you're "crafty"/"adventurous" you can still use it today... but it's getting harder and harder.

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

On any other forum, that may well be the case.

But remember, this is badcaps.net - there's quite a few of us here who would happily ditch our phones in favor of a proper desktop. Seriously. (As a matter of fact, I have a dumb phone, and I rarely use it.)

Also worth mentioning is that this thread is in the "General Computer Discussion" section... meaning we are discussing PCs here, not set-top box and phone OSs.

The desktop computer is obsolescent -- if not outright obsolete.

The laptop is following close behind.

They lack the "mobile" aspect. We may see computers continue in a role as HTPC's or other "service" roles in the home. But, people are too focused on "instant gratification" -- wanting to be able to look something up (or make a phone call) wherever they happen to be -- instead of waiting until they have access to "fleshier" solutions.

This will continue to drive applications in that direction. How many folks use a tenth of the capabilities of a typical word processor? Do you really need access to all those typefaces? Can't you build an index just by TOUCHING the instances of the terms that you want to reside in that index (instead of inserting a "magic hook" with your mouse and keyboard)? Ditto cross references, etc.

Business settings (where folks still have an "assigned workspace") will drive virtually all future desktop sales. And, even those will start to introduce more "local cloud" services so employees can use their mobile devices while away from their desks.

This is glaringly evident in the types of kit I see being recycled: smaller and smaller desktop machines (SFF & USFF & AiO's) and bigger servers and storage farms. Carry the UI around with you, not the whole computer!

[Per Hansson]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Windows 10 x32 will work on those...
Or you can replace them with newer stepping ones...


According to this article on Superuser, you need a "G1 Stepping" Netburst CPU.

https://superuser.com/questions/9317...efetchw-and-la

I don't believe so.
I've got a Paxville which is the dual-core variant of that chip.
It does have LAHF/SAHF & CMPXCHG16b yet it lacks the PrefetchW instruction.
So I'm willing to bet that G1 stepping Nocona is the same.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...916#post728916

[Topcat]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

The desktop computer is obsolescent -- if not outright obsolete.

The laptop is following close behind.

You sir, are 100% correct. I find this reality to be very sad, but that's technology. I've had a wonderful 27-year technology career that will be ending with the death of the PC. The direction tech heading doesn't interest me at all from a servicer standpoint. I've had a great career, but its time to pass the baton onto the next generation....I still take in motherboard recap jobs, some interesting irreplaceable things still come through here....but beyond that, its a hobby of seeing what kind of weird systems I can throw together. PC building is a very cheap hobby right now!! ...as long as you're not depending on it for a living.

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

You sir, are 100% correct. I find this reality to be very sad, but that's technology.

I look at this with mixed feelings.

First, I am blown away by how much progress The Computer (and computing devices) have made over the course of my career. The notion that I can WEAR more computational horsepower than filled a room in my youth -- and that I can actually OWN it! -- is mindblowing! No more punched cards, amber/green monochrome TEXT terminals, noisey chain printers, etc.

Second, the advances in software that have replaced simple "scientific programs" (early computing) with a variety of tools that are far more useful in day-to-day living.

Third, the abandonment of bigger machines makes more of them (and a wider variety) available for my personal use. So, having a spare computer -- or eight -- isn't even remarkable!

OTOH, it has trivialized what really is not a trivial accomplishment or banal device. Folks now expect wonders from technology -- and, amusingly, also expect those devices to be buggy!

Finally, distressing to see how much of this kit is casually discarded or (gasp) scorned at for being "too slow"

(I really think folks should be forced to sit down with a Bell 103 modem and an ASR33 for a few minutes in their life to see how fast and convenient things have become!)

I've had a wonderful 27-year technology career that will be ending with the death of the PC. The direction tech heading doesn't interest me at all from a servicer standpoint.

I initially thought that when SMT came along. But, eventually realized it was just a new set of tools and skills.

I've had a great career, but its time to pass the baton onto the next generation....I still take in motherboard recap jobs, some interesting irreplaceable things still come through here....but beyond that, its a hobby of seeing what kind of weird systems I can throw together. PC building is a very cheap hobby right now!! ...as long as you're not depending on it for a living.

IoT will create scads of different new products, all of which will have limited lifetimes (common, nowadays). But, most of these devices will be relatively inexpensive making them tough to repair at a pricepoint that competes with "replace".

Devices that are more expensive will remain the things that are repaired. I'd look to music/musical instruments/DAWs/etc.

[Topcat]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

I look at this with mixed feelings.

First, I am blown away by how much progress The Computer (and computing devices) have made over the course of my career. The notion that I can WEAR more computational horsepower than filled a room in my youth -- and that I can actually OWN it! -- is mindblowing! No more punched cards, amber/green monochrome TEXT terminals, noisey chain printers, etc.

Second, the advances in software that have replaced simple "scientific programs" (early computing) with a variety of tools that are far more useful in day-to-day living.

Third, the abandonment of bigger machines makes more of them (and a wider variety) available for my personal use. So, having a spare computer -- or eight -- isn't even remarkable!

OTOH, it has trivialized what really is not a trivial accomplishment or banal device. Folks now expect wonders from technology -- and, amusingly, also expect those devices to be buggy!

Finally, distressing to see how much of this kit is casually discarded or (gasp) scorned at for being "too slow"

(I really think folks should be forced to sit down with a Bell 103 modem and an ASR33 for a few minutes in their life to see how fast and convenient things have become!)



I initially thought that when SMT came along. But, eventually realized it was just a new set of tools and skills.



IoT will create scads of different new products, all of which will have limited lifetimes (common, nowadays). But, most of these devices will be relatively inexpensive making them tough to repair at a pricepoint that competes with "replace".

Devices that are more expensive will remain the things that are repaired. I'd look to music/musical instruments/DAWs/etc.

Nothing I can really disagree with in that.... I'd recap & rebuild motherboards and do custom PC builds for another 27 years, but the glory days are gone. Theres no percentage in any consumer-level stuff (TV's, PC's, phones, etc), you can't make a living fixing that stuff.....

I started in the early 90's when SMT was in its infancy, so I learned it from the start. From there, I've always been self employed in some form of tech....but the component level technology isn't why I don't wish to pursue it any further, its more the code angle....I hate coding with an absolute purple passion, I've done more than my share and don't want to do it anymore....and if you're not fixing hardware in tech today, you're coding apps. It's not for me. Most modern hardware is throw-away, save for some really higher end and/or industrial stuff. Either way, if I really wanted to stay in hardware, odds are it would require moving to an urban area.....no way! I have plenty of other interests and will keep tech as a hobby while making a living in other areas. Don't worry, this forum isn't going anywhere!

[Stefan Payne]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

I don't believe so.
I've got a Paxville which is the dual-core variant of that chip.
It does have LAHF/SAHF & CMPXCHG16b yet it lacks the PrefetchW instruction.
So I'm willing to bet that G1 stepping Nocona is the same.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...916#post728916

Oh...

Windows 8.1 or 10??

[Topcat]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

I don't believe so.
I've got a Paxville which is the dual-core variant of that chip.
It does have LAHF/SAHF & CMPXCHG16b yet it lacks the PrefetchW instruction.
So I'm willing to bet that G1 stepping Nocona is the same.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...916#post728916

I was able to run win8 and S2K12 R1 (both 64 bit) on my Paxvilles....but 8.1 and S2K12 R2 would not because of the prefetchw issue.

It has indeed.
Nonetheless, if you're "crafty"/"adventurous" you can still use it today... but it's getting harder and harder.

Security was not the reason I abandoned XP as the mainstream, I'm pretty crafty at locking down an EoL windows OS....they aren't the antichrist of insecurity like the security alarmist moonbeams want you to think, but you do have to be careful with it....and yes, be a little creative. My main reason was what I mentioned earlier.

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Nothing I can really disagree with in that.... I'd recap & rebuild motherboards and do custom PC builds for another 27 years, but the glory days are gone. Theres no percentage in any consumer-level stuff (TV's, PC's, phones, etc), you can't make a living fixing that stuff.....

That's the flip-side of all the "benefits" I cited -- one man's feast is another's famine. :-/

I'm tickled that I don't have to lay out my own "memory modules" to avoid paying the $1500/4MB (that's an M, not a G) that I would have been charged for my first PC's (times 6). And, that I can put 100GB in a box without having to mortgage the house!

I started in the early 90's when SMT was in its infancy, so I learned it from the start.

I'm about two decades earlier with DIP and flatpack packaging -- and a whole slew of different alphabet-soup technologies: TTL, LS/S/ALS/AS, 4KCMOS/HC/HCT, 10KECL/MECL III, HiNIL, WAROM, EPROM, EEPROM, bipolar ROMs, etc. So, there's been lots of "adjusting" to do in packaging and technologies (from 1Kx1 RAMs and 512x8 UV EPROMs and microprocessors that ran at KHz to where we are today).

And, all the time, it being fairly obvious that there was a damn good chance that most of the stuff that you were playing with, today, wouldn't be around in a few more years (don't get me started on the number of CPUs that have disappeared over the years -- leaving us with probably the worst of the bunch!)

I grumble that I should have been a plumber (not much changes, there! )

From there, I've always been self employed in some form of tech....but the component level technology isn't why I don't wish to pursue it any further, its more the code angle....I hate coding with an absolute purple passion, I've done more than my share and don't want to do it anymore....and if you're not fixing hardware in tech today, you're coding apps.

I think "apps" have become commodities. They tend to be lightweight and frilly -- hard to get any sense of satisfaction out of most of them.

I design "things" so a good bit of my work is assessing the problem space, designing the hardware, deciding what to do in software (to reduce hardware costs), writing the code and then interfacing with whatever mechanisms are required (am I pumping gasoline? or, knocking a 1" steel ball around a playing field??)

Even so, many of my peers would buy a COTS "microcontroller board" and coerce it to fit their application (I design from the component level). Then, redesign their application when the board is no longer available.

It's not for me. Most modern hardware is throw-away, save for some really higher end and/or industrial stuff. Either way, if I really wanted to stay in hardware, odds are it would require moving to an urban area.....no way! I have plenty of other interests and will keep tech as a hobby while making a living in other areas. Don't worry, this forum isn't going anywhere!

Most important issue is to like what you are doing. You spend a helluvalot of time working throughout your life -- silly to spend it doing something you don't enjoy (or, worse -- dread!) I was lucky to pick a field that has kept me learning, continuously, so each day is a new set of experiences.

OTOH, I know other folks in the same field who stopped learning long ago. So, I guess part of it is also having the inclination to want to take on the newness that the field offers.

<shrug>

[ratdude747]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Windows 10 x32 will work on those...
Or you can replace them with newer stepping ones...


According to this article on Superuser, you need a "G1 Stepping" Netburst CPU.

https://superuser.com/questions/9317...efetchw-and-la

WIth AMD:
You need a DDR-II SDRAM model at least.
The older DDR-I SDRAM don't support that either.


€dit:
ahhh...
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Xeon/I...KG3600EA).html

There you can see the "G1 Stepping".
So I assume that 65nm ones support that probably...

I don't believe so.
I've got a Paxville which is the dual-core variant of that chip.
It does have LAHF/SAHF & CMPXCHG16b yet it lacks the PrefetchW instruction.
So I'm willing to bet that G1 stepping Nocona is the same.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...916#post728916

Yup.

x32 is out, as she runs 16Gb of Registered DDR2. Not even a Page file RAM disk trick (how I make use of 8GB on my Gallatin rigs) will utilize all of it. Not a huge deal though, as windows 7 is good enough for what it does.

[momaka]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

The desktop computer is obsolescent -- if not outright obsolete.

The laptop is following close behind.

I agree.

But again, that's irrelevant for badcaps.net. Like I said, there's still plenty of folks here who use desktop PCs. Hence, as one might expect, the results of the poll above do *not* reflect results from outside this forum.

I initially thought that when SMT came along. But, eventually realized it was just a new set of tools and skills.

Not exactly.
New stuff tends to be built like shit and not really made to be serviced. It's really mostly debugging software these days. Whenever there is a hardware problem, it's just easier (and often cheaper) to replace things rather than try to fix things on the hardware level.

So your new tools and skill set are pretty much limited to "rebooting" and/or "try powering it off and on again".

But, most of these devices will be relatively inexpensive making them tough to repair at a pricepoint that competes with "replace".

Exactly.

Devices that are more expensive will remain the things that are repaired. I'd look to music/musical instruments/DAWs/etc.

I've seen people often junk even expensive audio equipment these days when it malfunctions.

No one really fixes anything anymore - electronics-wise anyways. Now if we're talking about houses here (I know, I'm going quite off-topic here), that's a business that's actually growing, thanks to shitty building practices (in North America anyways... Europe is a whole another world).

[stj]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

desktop pc's will never die - they have specialist uses.

i used to build towers for CD duplication,
now i sometimes build machines for arcade emulation.

any time you need serious performance, or lots of i/o a pc fits the role.

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

desktop pc's will never die - they have specialist uses.

i used to build towers for CD duplication,
now i sometimes build machines for arcade emulation.

any time you need serious performance, or lots of i/o a pc fits the role.

But as their popularity declines, the choices available to the customer diminish and the "specialties" become expensive options instead of standard features as do the tools (and OS) running on them.

E.g., I've been moving all of my machines to VM's so I can support more configurations (software AND hardware) with less hardware -- and, leverage the existing hardware to more uses (I'm not keen on having to replicate the various I/O devices on multiple machines OR try to get widely varied applications to peacefully coexist with each other in a single sandbox)

[Topcat]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

desktop pc's will never die - they have specialist uses.

I also agree with this....but the demand for desktop-style PC's will be so low, I can see a time when the big box guys (dell, HP, IBM. etc) stop making them....and there will be maybe a couple companies that would still make motehrboards & cases....so they'll all be 'build your own'...which doesn't bother me in the least.

Laptops OTOH will hang on for quite a while longer. Still tons of practical mainstream uses for a laptop.

[stj]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

laptops will be around forever,
there are too many jobs that need a keyboard and big(ish) screen to fuck around with a tablet.

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Laptops OTOH will hang on for quite a while longer. Still tons of practical mainstream uses for a laptop.

I wouldn't bank on that. There is a lot of effort being spent on minimizing user interfaces. None of my recent projects have required more than a cell-phone or small tablet for a user-interface.

My medical providers each have a PC in each examination room -- but, they interface to the machines using voice and just rely on the keyboard when the speech recognition system screws up (surely they could use an on-screen keyboard just as well, esp as accuracy continues to improve; and, surely they don't need lots of display to read my "chart")

Too many applications are migrating towards the smaller screen putting pressure on others that may or may not be as well-suited for that "advance".

Other complex "devices" are benefiting from even leaner UI's (e.g., Alexa is lighterweight than even a cell phone or PDA!)

(Surely, I can't imagine doing CAD on a small phone/tablet. Or, a complex spreadsheet. OTOH, I used a version of Excel on an old phone with a 2" display quite well -- they just weren't complex spreadsheets!)

[Topcat]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

My medical providers each have a PC in each examination room -- but, they interface to the machines using voice and just rely on the keyboard when the speech recognition system screws up (surely they could use an on-screen keyboard just as well, esp as accuracy continues to improve; and, surely they don't need lots of display to read my "chart")

Not in any Doc's office I've been in. They have PC's, usually USFF Dell's (they seem to like the Optiplex 3010's), and manually key in everything. My dad had open heart surgery a few years ago, so I've been in the offices of many of the 'big ones', including Mayo....they all had USFF desktops & keyboards.

The automotive service industry by itself is more than enough to keep laptops alive. Tablets can be used, but are a very poor substitute....

[dmill89]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Not in any Doc's office I've been in. They have PC's, usually USFF Dell's (they seem to like the Optiplex 3010's), and manually key in everything. My dad had open heart surgery a few years ago, so I've been in the offices of many of the 'big ones', including Mayo....they all had USFF desktops & keyboards.

The automotive service industry by itself is more than enough to keep laptops alive. Tablets can be used, but are a very poor substitute....

^Same here (heck, my dentist only even got computers in the exam rooms about 5 years ago, prior to that just about everything was done on paper), and at work we still have tens of thousands of laptops and desktops (more laptops than desktops now, the only give desktops to hourly employees who since they can't work from home, and issue laptops to everyone else), as for phones/tablets, we of course develop customer facing web-apps with mobile use in mind, but internally they have very limited use (only e-mail is permitted on phones, and only through a special app that encrypts it and can remotely wipe a compromised device), of course this is in the health insurance industry with lots of sensitive data, so just about anything on personal devices or unsecured networks is big no-no.

I see the internet becoming more mobile focused (though I still know very few people who use only a phone and/or tablet, most still own a Laptop or desktop in addition to their mobile device when they want to do anything beyond basic browsing, desktops outside of gaming-rigs and high-end workstations do appear to be "on their way out"), but it will likely be a very long time if ever until most actually workplaces (i.e. offices) move away from laptops and desktops, especially in banking, insurance, manufacturing, accounting, and government (note most of these still make heavy use of Mainframes and COBOL as well).

I'll also mention that many doctors offices are still squarely "stuck" in the 1970s or 1980s, at work we support a virtual fax system and while they have been foretelling the demise of fax for nearly two decades the system is still heavily used and in many recent years we have actually had to add capacity because so many providers (doctors offices/hospitals) are still faxing in documents even though we have had the ability for them to do all the "paperwork" online since the late 90s (and stuff submitted online gets processed much more quickly). Technology often "hangs-on" much longer than any one expects, look at how long floppy-discs, VHS, and cassette tapes stuck around.

[Curious.George]

Re: The 2018 Operating System thread

Not in any Doc's office I've been in. They have PC's, usually USFF Dell's (they seem to like the Optiplex 3010's), and manually key in everything. My dad had open heart surgery a few years ago, so I've been in the offices of many of the 'big ones', including Mayo....they all had USFF desktops & keyboards.

All of my providers have modern technology deployed in their practices. If I get a set of xrays at the dentist, they're in my inbox before I get back to the house. They all dictate what they would have written in years past. They've got summaries of all my vitals from recent visits -- can tell me if I've been gaining or losing weight with just a glance at the screen, trends in my BP, etc.

When I walk out the door, I get a few pages that summarize my vitals for the visit, what we discussed, medication changes, Rx's, directions for followups, referrals, etc. Any prescriptions are sent electronically to the pharmacy that I've preselected -- often ready to be picked up later that same day.

If I'm supposed to see a specialist, there's a voice mail waiting for me from the specialist's office when I get home ("Please give us a call to select the most appropriate time...")

The same is true of local hospitals -- all electronic records from admission to discharge. I can view an MRI that I had this morning on my PC tonight.

Other practices have moved beyond the PC to just carrying ~10 inch tablets around -- so the practitioner carries his UI instead of moving from one workstation to another.

[IIRC, this was part of the initial Obamacare push -- to modernize the practice of medicine instead of clinging to old practices (I think the government subsidized much of this "upgrade")]