Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

[Toasty]

I know the HM & HN series had problems spanning 4 years, but we are 4 years out of that and I'd like to know if the have once again shown themselves worthy of consideration. I understand Mouser dropped them for a time also. Prior to my joining here.

If you have used them in -recent- work, and have found them either sound once again or still having problems, I'd like your feedback.

I'm looking for actual cases, not speculations, not datasheet comparisons, nor hearsay.

I've seen some recent posts suggesting the use of HN for motherboards, as well as HM's. 2007 seems to be the mark point where cases dribbled down to nothing with a few recent cases coming from systems built in the pre-2007 era. Since then, its much older systems (door stops) built in the 2001-2005 era that are just now showing up.

I've used the HZ's in VRM out, with positive, solid results. The ratings on the HN's indicate they would do fine in an environment where Ruby MCZ's would be used, also. Their ratings are rather similar from what I can see.

The HM's seem to be on a par with Ruby MBZ and perhaps a touch above Panny FM's?
- Are HM/HN good for computer PSU's replacement and upgrades?
- How about Computer LCD displays or Flat panel TV's?

Mouser seems to be the largest stocker of them at the moment.

HZ - 35 listed - 21 stocked - 13 in stock - 8 on order
HN - 57 listed - 37 stocked - 27 in stock - 10 on order
HM - 58 listed - 45 stocked - 37 in stock - 8 on order

I find them oddly missing from some member's "comparison lists" over the past 18 months, but now are trickling back in here and there in various threads.

Thoughts? Comments?

Toast

[EDIT: grammatical error... ]

[c_hegge]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

I have a few HM series with '06 date codes which seem fine. I removed them from an Intel motherborad and recently used them in a re-cap, for my Biostar M7VIG-400 (https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8055 Post #16). I'd say they've probably been OK since nichicon fixed the manufacturing defect in 2005.

[Toasty]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

Thanks for the response! I'd begun to think I'd farted in church...

Interesting. You used -used- HM's in the VRM out. I'm curious to see the long term results.

Up until 2 weeks ago, I never gave them a second glance because they were poo-pooed many times in here. I only used the spec sheets for comparison when someone had a failure (of the older ones). Cap comparison lists made by some members include the HZ series, but not these.

I've been looking for some other options in recapping, and these happily surprised me when I did some earnest comparisons.

Understand this was/is merely a spec-to-spec comparison. It has no durability values to back it up, unlike the Panasonic and Rubycon brands. That is why I'm looking for "field data" to support the specs. I like having more choices available in case of an out-of-stock at one or more of the suppliers.

Cheers!
Toast

[kc8adu]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

just replaced some 07 dated hm in a router.just starting to bulge and the router was needing a reset several times a day.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

Only seen 2005 date codes bad twice and both times PSU/heat issues were possible causes. One was a Dell toaster oven that often blows the likes of MBZ/MCZ too. The other wasn't mine, I read it here somewhere and I don't remember what board.
Haven't seen any bad newer than those at all.
KC's router may be heat related too.
.
I think HN & HM are fine now.
.
I don't trust HZ or MCZ all that much.
I hardly ever see HZ at all and I see a butt-ton of blown MCZ.
.
I suspect they are pushing the limits on the chemistry with HZ/MCZ [any ultra low ESR caps] like Chem-icon does with KZG/KZJ. I 'think' I see a lot more blown MCZ in the Dells than blown Panny or MBZ which leads me to believe they are less resilient.
- But that's just a gut feeling based on seeing a number of mixed MBZ/MCZ or FJ-FL/MCZ boxes where all the MCZ are blown but nothing else is.
I haven't been keeping track of how many bad of this-that/where to figuer the odds of a blown MCZ over MBZ or panny. [Maybe I should start but I only started doing the Dell plate warmers regularly this year and the relatively small number thus far wouldn't really mean much. Too small a sample size.]
Without doing such a 'study', just seeing 'a lot' of blown anything doesn't mean too much. Seeing MCZ blown more often might be because MCZ get used 'there' [in those positions] more often.
.

[c_hegge]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

Interesting. You used -used- HM's in the VRM out. I'm curious to see the long term results.

I use second-hand caps a lot, but only if they are good brands (Ruby, Panny, Nichicon, NCC/UCC, Sanyo). It seems to work fine, although I havent been doing it long enough to see long term results.

[Toasty]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

@kc8adu - Does the router run very hot where that could be the cause as PC suggested? I'm fairly certain that unit got a poly mod and will never be heard from again...

----------------

@PCBONEZ - Well that certainly muddies the water a bit. Especially with MCZ's held in high regard around here. I agree that knowing any of these brands can fail with overheating, forming any conclusion from too few samples is misleading.

If 5 techs on here from around the world were seeing 50 boards a month each, and reporting the same failures, it would be more conclusive because of the higher sample rate.

-----------------

@c_hegge - I think the biggest factor on that recap is going to be the amount of heat that they are exposed to and for how long. I think going to the FM on VRM-IN is going to benefit them immensely. That and a clean PSU.

----------------

Perhaps the message here is stepping back from the edge a bit with the uber caps, makes a bit of sense? HN instead of HZ? MBZ instead of MCZ? Less of the breathtakingly low ESR and sub-orbital high ripple current types for a more "middle of the road" approach?

Well, maybe high-middle...

Toast

[i4004]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

yes, i was also surprised as mcz is Rubycon after all.
but sacrilige is sometimes good...hehe...

there are no saints, just things better suited for the purpose....

>I suspect they are pushing the limits on the chemistry with HZ/MCZ [any ultra low ESR caps] like Chem-icon does with KZG/KZJ.

makes sense.

i recently bought 2 biostar mobos as they were rather cheap...at the price of a dvd-burner (brother's kids wanted upgrade for one of their machines..and i got one as a backup) and it got kzg, but not in the "first row" round the cpu (polys are in the first row), but a bit further, actually behind the vrm coils too....probably to escape that hot air somewhat...
perhaps biostar folks have been reading such forums too...hehe

what about installing some ultra small fan(s) just to keep those cool...
<smile>

what's the price difference of these and those sanyo polys kc has a ton of?

[Topcat]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

An ironic twist on this one......a customer sent me a G5 about 3 weeks ago full of bad HN's, no surprise there. Here's the kicker though, he tells me he had purchased the caps for it, but didn't feel comfortable installing them. I didn't ask what he bought, I told him to send the caps along with the board, and I'll install them. It shows up, with replacement caps from Mouser, all of which were new Nichicon HN's. We'll see how long that one lives...

[hardwareguy]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

Those HN's from Mouser should be OK.

I recapped an HM equipped Dell with HNs about 18 months ago (UCC was out of stock at Mouser) and its still going strong.

A friend recapped about 10 GX270s with 2008 date code HNs last summer...those are still OK and those machines are in a 24/7 call center.

I think they are fine now.

[Topcat]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

^
They may be ok for now, and for Nichicon's sake, I hope they are.....but keep in mind, even crap caps will last 2~3 years....

[hardwareguy]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

Gigabyte used a mix of Rubycon MBZ and HM on their 939 boards made in 2006....they are still going. Most of the issues with those boards arise from chipset issues.

[370forlife]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

I just got a ATI radeon 9550, straight from ATI with HN's. These were bought in about ~2007, date codes H0730. Board is perfectly stable and no sign of failing caps. Has a small passive heatsink and these were running 24/7 since being bought, as well as being forced to play cod4 for hours on end at a lan party.

[hardwareguy]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

I just got a ATI radeon 9550, straight from ATI with HN's. These were bought in about ~2007, date codes H0730. Board is perfectly stable and no sign of failing caps. Has a small passive heatsink and these were running 24/7 since being bought, as well as being forced to play cod4 for hours on end at a lan party.

Its things like that that tell me they took care of business. Do I trust them as much as Rubycon or CDE? No, but they are inexpensive and very easy to come by in my area.

[Topcat]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

Gigabyte used a mix of Rubycon MBZ and HM on their 939 boards made in 2006....they are still going. Most of the issues with those boards arise from chipset issues.

Yes, I see a lot of those. Their 1000uF caps are HM's and their 3300uF caps are Rubies. Seen many of the HM's bad, which is why they were sent to me.

I guess it boils down to trust. Would I ever use or carry a line of them? No. I don't trust them enough.

[370forlife]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

So basically, not replace on sight, only if you don't trust them or they are giving your problems/failed.

[Topcat]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

^
I still replace them all on sight, even if they 'appear' ok.

[hardwareguy]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

I replace on sight if date code is older than 2008.

While I havent had issues with HN and HM in recaps, I have not used anything older than July 2007.....all bets are off before that. Ive had good luck in basic systems where the owner wanted to keep costs to a minimum....no gurantees.

If the owner wants it "fixed for good" and pays accordingly, he or she gets polymers.

[hardwareguy]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

Yes, I see a lot of those. Their 1000uF caps are HM's and their 3300uF caps are Rubies. Seen many of the HM's bad, which is why they were sent to me.

I guess it boils down to trust. Would I ever use or carry a line of them? No. I don't trust them enough.

Oh snap! When were these made and what was the symptom? Did the bulge or fail with no signs? Why I ask is we have a whole lab full of boards like this....and guess who's the admin for all this mess?

[Topcat]

Re: Are Nichicon HM & HN back in good standing?

Oh snap! When were these made and what was the symptom? Did the bulge or fail with no signs? Why I ask is we have a whole lab full of boards like this....and guess who's the admin for all this mess?

Many of them appeared ok, but had high ESR readings. I don't have any here at the moment to fetch date codes from, but they would be circa 2006~2007. Next time I get one, I will note the date code for you. Most of them posted and ran, but were just quirky and unstable. Recapping them cured this.