Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

[momaka]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

maybe it's time to start avoiding all non-aqueous Panasonic capacitors.

I dunno, I guess I'll still go on a case-by-case basis.
FWIW, I just re-used a few Panasonic FC 16V, 2200 uF, 12.5 mm dia. caps from a Dell BX440 Pentium 2/3 motherboard into a PSU (and put some 6.3V MFZ on the motherboard, since I have more of those than 16V, 2200 uF caps at the moment.) I guess time will tell if anything goes down.

[Figuratum]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Ah, I did not know that the datecode format works after 2010 for the last digit as well. Thanks for sharing!

I was wrong about how long I stored these caps, because I bought them at June 6th 2020 from Farnell. I don't think the corrosion has formed in three months, especially because they are in a clean cabinet in a warm and dry lab. I doubt the storage Farnell wasn't optimal (but I don't remember the package).

See the attachment for the vent.

[Wester547]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

The FP series is the miniaturized FC series with a much higher ripple current rating. It was released over two years ago. Both series are supposed to be certified for automotive applications. I’d guess it’s non-aqueous like FC going by the temperature rating in the datasheet (attached). In accordance to Panasonic’s date decoding system (also attached), those have August 2019 datecodes. That said, seeing nearly twenty of them leak at both leads unused (genuine Panasonics retaining their leads in full, assuming the pressure relief vent looks correct) just by sitting for a year at room temperature? ...Not good... maybe it’s time to start avoiding all non-aqueous Panasonic capacitors.

[Figuratum]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Hi there, as this is my first message, I'll introduce myself briefly:

My name is Peter and i have a small electronic repair bussiness in The Netherlands. I have visited this forum multiple times to gather useful info, and now I stumbled onto something you guys might be interested in.

For a recurring recapping job I needed 1000 uF 35v caps. Normally I stick with Rubycon, but as there was no stock of YXH caps, I bought some Panasonic PF caps. Unfortunately, they got just a bit too hot due to the ripple current (maybe because of the smaller size) so I did not use them in the end but contacted Mouser and they kindly restocked the Rubycons.

Today I needed a 1000uF cap with a smaller footprint for another repair and grabbed an FP that was still laying around (I think for a year or so) but noticed green corrosion at the legs base. This does not look good at all and after checking the rest I concluded that almost all of them (20) have the corrosion. As this is my firs post, I'm not able to post pictures, but I'll post them later.

The production code on the caps is 9826QG. I don't think they are from 98, but could not find what the right production date is. Does anyone know how to decode this?

The MFN is EEU-FP1V102. Pics:

[Figuratum]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Hi there, as this is my first message, I'll introduce myself briefly:

My name is Peter and i have a small electronic repair bussiness in The Netherlands. I have visited this forum multiple times to gather useful info, and now I stumbled onto something you guys might be interested in.

For a recurring recapping job I needed 1000 uF 35v caps. Normally I stick with Rubycon, but as there was no stock of YXH caps, I bought some Panasonic PF caps. Unfortunately, they got just a bit too hot due to the ripple current (maybe because of the smaller size) so I did not use them in the end but contacted Mouser and they kindly restocked the Rubycons.

Today I needed a 1000uF cap with a smaller footprint for another repair and grabbed an FP that was still laying around (I think for a year or so) but noticed green corrosion at the legs base. This does not look good at all and after checking the rest I concluded that almost all of them (20) have the corrosion. As this is my firs post, I'm not able to post pictures, but I'll post them later.

The production code on the caps is 9826QG. I don't think they are from 98, but could not find what the right production date is. Does anyone know how to decode this?

[mockingbird]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

WG or WF?
WF are known bloaters - same as KZG or maybe even worse. See my post recently here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...98#post1000498

Yes:





I tested the capacity and ESR. One read 1000uF or so and one was a bit under at 800uF or so... But both of them had an ESR of 0.7-0.8 Ohms. For comparison, I tested some 2014 datecode Nichicon HM, they all passed (around 10 mOhm).

BTW, I've been using a few Rubycon YXJ lately for some of my PSU recaps. Seem like a good Nichi PW alternative right now and also quite cheap. Occasionally YXF too.

Yes, great caps... You can get a 6.3V 220uF cap in 5mm with YXJ. YXx like ZLx are both aqueous series. ZLx is probably an equivalent to UCC KZE and YXx to UCC KY and KYx.

Got a slightly better tester here... It's basically the same as your component tester with a programmable PIC chip, but the software gives better resolution on the ESR (up to 1mOhm) resolution... It's a $20 kit, but the PIC chip did not come programmed, so the programmer was like another $5 or so from China.

The motherboard pictured is a Gigabyte GA-8SIMLH.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I wouldn't discard FC just yet.
There may be failures, but I don't think it's frequent enough yet to worry

Agreed, I think it's easy to get carried away here at Badcaps.
Remember that they produce millions of these caps!
And here we have seen a couple bad samples.
Would need to be allot more to be classified as something really bad like Chemi-Con KZG or Nichicon HM's bad years IMO.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

if the cap industry ever reads this thread,
they need to start making really shitty polymers with liquid type esr numbers!

It was back in 2008, I think, but in my ripple current torture testing at Curtis Instruments I beat the @#$% out of some samples of polymers and they just kept working, deteriorating very slowly.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

PR for sure. I've seen many leak from the bung on old equipment.
PL seems to have fixed that, but they may still be not old enough to tell. So far so good, though.

PS is OK, IME.
PM, I've seen the leads oxidize with green corrosion near the bung on a bag of 16V, 100 uF caps in 6.3 mm dia. that I got from Mouser many years ago. ...

The PR and PL series were obsoleted some 15 years ago by Nichicon due to RoHS. PL was resurrected as the PM series; Nichicon intended to leave the PR series in its grave but resurrected it due to customer demand as the PS series.

OTOH, Nichicon simply converted the PJ and PW series to RoHS-compliant without changing the name. The much newer PA series, whose impedance and ripple current ratings are similar to the aqueous HE series (and its performance in my ripple current torture testing of long ago), has always been RoHS-compliant.

[stj]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

if the cap industry ever reads this thread,
they need to start making really shitty polymers with liquid type esr numbers!

[momaka]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

So PL and PR (obsolete) and PS/PM are to be avoided in that case...

PR for sure. I've seen many leak from the bung on old equipment.
PL seems to have fixed that, but they may still be not old enough to tell. So far so good, though.

PS is OK, IME.
PM, I've seen the leads oxidize with green corrosion near the bung on a bag of 16V, 100 uF caps in 6.3 mm dia. that I got from Mouser many years ago. Weird thing I saw the first cap like that in that bag just a few years after I bought the caps. But more interesting is that not all of these 16V, 100 uF caps had this problem, despite all being made in the same batch (or at least in the same factory, since they came in cut tape package and not as individual pieces.) Both the "good" and the "corroded" PM 16V 100 uF caps from that bag still measure in spec, though.

So since FC is out of the picture, we're left with PW and LXY/LXZ for good, enduring non-aqueous parts...

I wouldn't discard FC just yet.
There may be failures, but I don't think it's frequent enough yet to worry.

That said, PW and LXZ have been absolutely solid.

I have also discovered bulging Sanyo WG which have been sitting idly on an old P4 motherboard... True, the caps are from 2004, but in light of this it must be said that later HM and FJ/FL were probably superior.

WG or WF?
WF are known bloaters - same as KZG or maybe even worse. See my post recently here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...98#post1000498

WG I think I've heard of people (Wester547) mention here that these caps had failures before... but generally are reliable overall.

BTW, I've been using a few Rubycon YXJ lately for some of my PSU recaps. Seem like a good Nichi PW alternative right now and also quite cheap. Occasionally YXF too.

[mockingbird]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

There are several other options, including Panasonic FK, Nichicon PX, Elna RJH and automotives like Elna RK, RKB, etc. I also haven't seen failures of NCC LXA, LXV and LXF, though they may have the quarternary salt formulation mentioned by Wester.

LXA, LXV and LXF are obsolete though, no?

Elna is difficult to get, neither Mouser, Digikey or Newark/Farnell stock them, unless things have changed.

Look at the datasheet for PX. PX is a long-life version of PM. If the difference between PW and PV is only the bunge (solid white plastic bung on PV which boosts it to a 5000 hour part IIRC), then it may be correct to assume that PX is an analogue of PM in the same way, and should also be avoided.

In that case, PV would be preferable to PX, eventhough PX is supposedly 20,000 hours.

If you need something that's extra long life in a 5mm part, then UCC KYB, KZM, KZN and LL series are preferable... If you want a non-aqueous high endurance part, then go for Nichion PV (expensive).

If you don't mind 5mm parts that have a mediocre ripple and ESR spec but you need high endurance in a non-aqueous variety but don't want to pay a fortune for Nichicon PV, then go for Panasonic EB or Rubycon ML. It seems as though Panasonic EB is being phased out though.

[linuxguru]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

So since FC is out of the picture, we're left with PW and LXY/LXZ for good, enduring non-aqueous parts...

There are several other options, including Panasonic FK, Nichicon PX, Elna RJH and automotives like Elna RK, RKB, etc. I also haven't seen failures of NCC LXA, LXV and LXF, though they may have the quarternary salt formulation mentioned by Wester.

[mockingbird]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

The PJ series is between the PL series and the PW series chronologically, I believe. I think the PR series is contemporary with the PL series. The PM series is the RoHS-compliant version of the PL series, and the PS series is the RoHS-compliant PR series. The PA series (not the PA series of the late 70s) is the next step after the PW series, with impedances close to that of the aqueous HE series. I believe Nichicon's naming convention is P_ series are non-aqueous and H_ series are aqueous.

So PL and PR (obsolete) and PS/PM are to be avoided in that case...

So since FC is out of the picture, we're left with PW and LXY/LXZ for good, enduring non-aqueous parts...

I'm going back on what I said about SMG somewhere else -- I would avoid this series after reading a report of bloating in an old audio amplifier product (used in the PSU).

I have also discovered bulging Sanyo WG which have been sitting idly on an old P4 motherboard... True, the caps are from 2004, but in light of this it must be said that later HM and FJ/FL were probably superior.

Has anyone noticed "not to be sold in Japan" now at the top of many Panasonic aqueous series datasheets... Wonder what that's about...

[linuxguru]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Thanks for the datasheet - I now have to locate all the Hi-Pros and similar that I had recapped then and replace the HFEs with NCC KY/KZE (of which I only have 2200uF/16, which should suffice). I haven't had any FC failures yet in an SMPS, but they're generally only in low-current bypasses or the -5v/-12v rails. One possible exception is on the primary side of the +5Vsb auxiliary flyback, where I've used 47uF/50V extensively over the last 15 years without a failure yet, but I'll probably switch to Rubycon YXG going forward.

[Wester547]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I enclosed the datasheet for the HFE series. HFG/HFQ was the recommended replacement at the time, after which the FC series became the modern equivalent. It seems all HF* series use the quaternary salts in the electrolyte and so suffer from this problem. I can understand very old series eventually succumbing to this “plague” of sorts, but I don’t understand how a problem such as this could slip QC and QA procedures by with regards to the FC series, a series still in production to this day, whilst PW and LXZ appear unaffected. It seems even the most rigorous endurance tests which accelerate degradation of parameters can only do so much to predict failure, hence why previously defective series have supposedly passed said tests. I guess the problem could also be the decomposition of the rubber bung.

[linuxguru]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

It may have been noted earlier here - Panasonic HFE (discontinued) also leaks dark brown electrolytic from the bung, along with some out-gassed bubbles/froth. It's older than FC (which was suggested as the official replacement for HFE), so it may share some common ingredients in the electrolytic. I can't find the datasheet, but there's a reference to it being a low-impedance, 2000 h, 105 c type for general industrial applications.

Edit: The value was 3300uF/16V/12.5mm which I had used to recap a Hi-Pro 250W over a decade ago, so I really shouldn't be complaining - except that it was a silent failure which I just accidentally detected because the electrolyte had dripped to the top of the cap by virtue of it having been standing upside down in the PC (which had been acting intermittently flaky for a while). The cap hadn't domed or vented.

[clearchris]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Samxon

I just recapped an 80s preamp that had exclusively samxson caps. Some had clearly gone bad, but I didn't see a bulge or a leak anywhere. Don't remember the series, but they were bright blue.

I don't know that I would buy samxson, but that's still pretty impressive.

[bestsystem]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Another example to use GBL /low leakage current caps is memory battery backup or clock capacitor.
This capacitor is in parallel with a coin cell battery and provide energy during battery change.
Modern EL / poly caps tend to forsake the low leakage current properties. A 50ua leakage will drain a 100mah cr2025 coin cell in 2000 hours, less than 3 months, unacceptable. I need to keep it under 1ua or less.

[pc7fan]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I don't mind Su'scon that much. Their GP caps are not that great when there is a bit more heat. But their PSU caps aren't all that horrible. Seem to be doing better than most Teapo and even maybe on par with Taicon (though I haven't encountered as many PSUs with Taicon and Su'scon as I have with Teapo - both failed and working... so can't really say if it's a direct apples-to-apples comparison.)

I would vow Taicon (Nichicon, Taiwan) as a 2nd tier brand, along Samxon and SamYoung (NCC, Korea), excluding the faulty series. They are arguably decent and they seem to be consistent - lifetime wise. I have seen tons of Taicon and Samxon survive (with OK specs) beside failed CrapXon and Ltec in Delta supplies. Also seen Su'scon fail while the SamYoungs test fine in LG TVs with repetition, so it seems to me that it's not just luck. Regardless, the Japanese brands are where the reliability is at.