Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

[momaka]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I don't mind Su'scon that much. Their GP caps are not that great when there is a bit more heat. But their PSU caps aren't all that horrible. Seem to be doing better than most Teapo and even maybe on par with Taicon (though I haven't encountered as many PSUs with Taicon and Su'scon as I have with Teapo - both failed and working... so can't really say if it's a direct apples-to-apples comparison.)

[lti]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I'm pretty sure everyone hates Su'scon (except that one guy).

I still have a computer power supply with Su'scon caps from 1998.

[bestsystem]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

http://www.su-scon.com.tw/en/category/L.html

Su'scon (Taiwanese) catalog is interesting, clearly listing out their anhydrous caps.

They also have audio, low leakage and three types bipolar caps.

[bestsystem]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

It is indeed a non-aqueous series. Regardless, if a cap catches fire in a power supply, something's seriously wrong :P

i dont think fc is dangerous in any aspect, the fire is only started deliberately, pull out the bung, rip the paper and foil apart and burn it.

worry other fire sources first, FC will add minor fire hazard if the PSU or the car catch serious fire, i think.

I have many old spare japanese caps in the tool box, purchased from un official sources, with some very genuine looking paper carton (FC series) or plastic bags date coded 10-15 years ago. I recapped my hot LG monitor with them 4 years ago and will see how they last.

[pc7fan]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

share some of my experience, the stuff (liquid and paper) in Panasonic FC is moderately flammable, will ignite with a cigar lighter and sustain fire.

many other caps are not flammable or unable to sustain fire.

this suggest fc is organic based with very little water.

with my limited chemistry knowledge, less water means less corrosion more stable and longer life

It is indeed a non-aqueous series. Regardless, if a cap catches fire in a power supply, something's seriously wrong :P

[bestsystem]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

share some of my experience, the stuff (liquid and paper) in Panasonic FC is moderately flammable, will ignite with a cigar lighter and sustain fire.

many other caps are not flammable or unable to sustain fire.

this suggest fc is organic based with very little water.

with my limited chemistry knowledge, less water means less corrosion more stable and longer life

[pc7fan]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

LXJ too? Yikes. Never seen one leak before but I wouldn't put it past them. I know they were also used in old proprietary Newton Power 200W PSUs from 20+ year old Dells. FC should not use the quaternary ammonium salts. Chemi-con released a notice in 2003 (attached in this post) maintaining that none of their series in production at the time used the quaternary salts, including SXE, whose older datecodes were also known leakers. But I noticed LXJ was not included in that document. I initially thought it was because it was going out of production at the time. Maybe the real reason is due to the usage of quaternary salts in the electrolyte.

Seen that notice from NCC. LXJ is not as prone to leak from the bung as the noted ones.. but when they leak, they wreck PCB traces just like the others. The only brand from that era that I don't see pee on the board from the bung are Pannies, even HFQ.

Even then, rubber does decompose after decades. It doesn't help when ammonia/ammonium attacks rubber and some plastics, expediting the process.

[stj]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

the problem with FC is not the electrolyte - it's the bung failing.

[Wester547]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Am wondering as well. I've also seen a few FCs leak in older GM/Ford ECUs. likewise Nichicon PF/PL/PR, NCC LXF/LXJ leakers that I can remember that I've seen in many 80s/90s old electronics. Does anybody know if FC uses quaternary ammonium salts or something related like the early Low ESR from that era? Am aware that FC is non-aqueous.

LXJ too? Yikes. Never seen one leak before but I wouldn’t put it past them. I know they were also used in old proprietary Newton Power 200W PSUs from 20+ year old Dells. FC should not use the quaternary ammonium salts. Chemi-con released a notice in 2003 (attached in this post) maintaining that none of their series in production at the time used the quaternary salts, including SXE, whose older datecodes were also known leakers. But I noticed LXJ was not included in that document. I initially thought it was because it was going out of production at the time. Maybe the real reason is due to the usage of quaternary salts in the electrolyte.

[pc7fan]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Am wondering as well. I've also seen a few FCs leak in older GM/Ford ECUs. likewise Nichicon PF/PL/PR, NCC LXF/LXJ leakers that I can remember that I've seen in many 80s/90s old electronics. Does anybody know if FC uses quaternary ammonium salts or something related like the early Low ESR from that era? Am aware that FC is non-aqueous.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Huh, PM? PW is supposed to be a miniaturized analog of PM.... That's not very reassuring. Don't they both use the same non-aqueous electrolyte?

It would be nice to use only LXZ, but NCC caps are often much more expensive.

Wester547: would you agree with the statement that it is possible to find old butyric acid capacitors in some 50 year old equipment that still test perfectly fine?

The PJ series is between the PL series and the PW series chronologically, I believe. I think the PR series is contemporary with the PL series. The PM series is the RoHS-compliant version of the PL series, and the PS series is the RoHS-compliant PR series. The PA series (not the PA series of the late 70s) is the next step after the PW series, with impedances close to that of the aqueous HE series. I believe Nichicon's naming convention is P_ series are non-aqueous and H_ series are aqueous.

[Wester547]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Huh, PM? PW is supposed to be a miniaturized analog of PM.... That's not very reassuring. Don't they both use the same non-aqueous electrolyte?

They are both non-aqueous. I don't know if both series employ the same organic solvent (gamma-Butyrolactone is a common solvent) and solution. The only way to know that is to ask Nichicon, and all capacitor manufacturers are generally tight lipped about the formulas (although some basics may be revealed in certain engineering drafts). I'm not too worried about it because Panasonic FC is known to exhibit this issue but Panasonic FK hasn't as of yet and both series are non-aqueous. I've never heard of any reliability problems with Nichicon PW, nor have I had any problems with them (knock on wood).

Another example: UCC's KZG datasheet claims that KZE and KZG share the same electrolyte, just as KZJ's datasheet says KZG and KZJ share the same electrolyte. Yet KZE is still much more stable than the other two series (although it's worth noting KZE has a considerably smaller percentage of water in the electrolyte).

Wester547: would you agree with the statement that it is possible to find old butyric acid capacitors in some 50 year old equipment that still test perfectly fine?

It depends on the quality and condition of the seal (rubber, epoxy, etc). Sometime in the late 50s, capacitors (by reputable manufacturers) started using high purity foil, which went a long way in aiding reliability (and allowed capacitors to be kept in storage for years without reformation instead of months).

[mockingbird]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Huh, PM? PW is supposed to be a miniaturized analog of PM.... That's not very reassuring. Don't they both use the same non-aqueous electrolyte?

It would be nice to use only LXZ, but NCC caps are often much more expensive.

Wester547: would you agree with the statement that it is possible to find old butyric acid capacitors in some 50 year old equipment that still test perfectly fine?

[momaka]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I recollect you saying the case size was 5x11 for those 100uF 16V Nichicon PM capacitors, though. According to the datasheet, it should be 6.3x11. So I wonder if they truly were genuine. Nichicon PR, PF, PL, PY, PQ, and PG were all affected by the “quaternary ammonium salt” issue.

I mis-reported. They are 6.3 mm dia. indeed.
Have 5 more in my stock, but they haven't gotten worse.

[stj]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

The Panasonic FC series also got popular for audio use because they sound fine, not a lot of distortion or dielectric non-linearity.
I have to recap a soundbar and subwoofer, going to use FR series although they are specifically stated as "not for automotive use" for some reason.

there is a qualification for use in safety-critical stuff like cars called AEC-Q200.
there is also an ISO standard.
at the moment only FC passes.

[Wester547]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I've used Nichicon PW in some PSU repairs, and so far so good.

I am still a bit weary of some of the Nichicon entry-level caps, though. For example, I had genuine (from Mouser) Nichicon PM leak from the bottom (from the leads) while still new in package after a few years in storage. I've also seen old Nichicon PR caps do that. Not sure if PL was affected too.

I recollect you saying the case size was 5x11 for those 100uF 16V Nichicon PM capacitors, though. According to the datasheet, it should be 6.3x11. So I wonder if they truly were genuine. Nichicon PR, PF, PL, PY, PQ, and PG were all affected by the “quaternary ammonium salt” issue.

[redwire]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

The Panasonic FC series also got popular for audio use because they sound fine, not a lot of distortion or dielectric non-linearity.
I have to recap a soundbar and subwoofer, going to use FR series although they are specifically stated as "not for automotive use" for some reason.

[momaka]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

A bit late to the conversation, but the obvious question would be about Nichicon's FC equivalent which is PW.

I've used Nichicon PW in some PSU repairs, and so far so good.

I am still a bit weary of some of the Nichicon entry-level caps, though. For example, I had genuine (from Mouser) Nichicon PM leak from the bottom (from the leads) while still new in package after a few years in storage. I've also seen old Nichicon PR caps do that. Not sure if PL was affected too.

[mockingbird]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

A bit late to the conversation, but the obvious question would be about Nichicon's FC equivalent which is PW.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Yea don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be the dictator of Badcaps here!
But the thought I had was exactly what you write: how many more brands/models do we put on the "maybe bad list"?
I mean it's pretty strange that HM/HN was not updated on that list even!
P.S: I added the note about KZG maybe being ok from year 2008 that you informed me of in another thread way back when.