Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

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  • kumasan
    Member
    • Dec 2014
    • 22
    • usa

    #1

    Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

    Hello veterans, thanks to help from you all I have managed to save numerous motherboards, monitors and appliances but Im still trying to improve my technique and have some questions on cap selection.

    Current project is a samung 50" plasma set that I bought some replacement caps for one of the larger caps that Im starting to have second thoughts about my purchase.

    I have generally used Panasonic FC/FM for my recaps of the smaller caps but with the high voltage none of the usual "good maker/series" caps from the forum are not available. I had a challenge finding a reputable brand in same 30mm footprint that had low ESR and a same/larger RC.

    The original cap was a Samwha 270uf/450v. RC=1.62

    I picked up some Rubycon VXH series which were the largest RC that digikey had in stock from a reliable brand for the 30mm diameter and 105c.

    After seeing the caps I realized the RC of the new caps were ~2/3 the size and was only RC=1.43 (~11% less). Trying to get an idea if I am ok to use these and would like to get tips on my selection thinking to help with future projects.

    Some related questions I would appreciate any tips/advice.

    o) For the larger caps they dont seem to list ESR in the spec sheet so the only real specs I can see in the spreadsheet for same cap/v/temp is the ripple current. Is there a reason they dont give an ESR, is it basically zero?

    o) Cap spec sheets do also list some phase angle specs. Is this some sort of linearity measure and does it ever matter?

    o) If the caps dont list ESR then I have been making choice on maker reputation and RC. Does ESR generally correlate with RC? Better caps seem usually larger, lower ESR, and higher RC. But I have seen some series as being advertised as more compact per same specs. I guess for more money a better "secret sauce" can be made or is something else like lifetime compromised. Basically Im trying to get some tips for selection criteria to wing it when the usual good maker/series dont exist.

    o) Im wondering if I will be ok with the Rubycons I purchased despite the lower RC. Im hoping the PS maker seemed to stick mosty with the same series/maker caps and might have some over design built in since they only have a single cap in that footprint. Since the caps are +/-20% for the cap value there might be some built in margin and given they are a better brand and likely to deliver on the promised specs.

    Appreciate feedback/tips on any of the questions.

    Thanks much,

    Kumasan.
  • PeteS in CA
    Badcaps Legend
    • Aug 2005
    • 3581
    • USA, Unsure of Planet

    #2
    Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

    This Nichicon series has a 270uF, 450V part in a 30mm diameter case. It's not in stock at Digi-Key, though, The 25mm and 35mm diameter parts are in stock.

    Looks like Digi-Key has several 270uF, 450V, 30mm diameter Panasonic parts (e.g. TS-UQ, -HC,-ED) in stock. Likewise Rubycon (e.g. MXG, MXH, MXK series).

    I'm not familiar with a parameter called "RC", other than an RC time-constant. The higher voltage (>/= 160V) caps usually don't have their impedance specified., just their ripple current rating. In a particular case size (snap-in parts typically have a 10mm lead space), the higher the ripple current rating, the better (and probably the impedance is lower, too).
    PeteS in CA

    Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
    ****************************
    To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
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    Comment

    • pfofit
      Member
      • Jun 2008
      • 10

      #3
      Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

      I think his RC= ripple current.

      If your spec sheet does not list ESR it is probably higher.

      Be careful that you consult the data sheet for the ripple current multiplier for the correct frequency it will be subjected to.
      All manufacturers and series do not use the same frequency of 120Hz for factor @ 1 for their non low ESR types such as your Ruby VXH.
      Sometimes 60HZ and sometimes 10KhZ

      Low ESR types typically/usually reference 100KHz at ripple factor correction @ 1

      VXH sample
      Attached Files
      Last edited by pfofit; 02-26-2017, 11:18 AM. Reason: added more info to help clarify

      Comment

      • kumasan
        Member
        • Dec 2014
        • 22
        • usa

        #4
        Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

        Thanks for the info and tips.
        RC=ripple current.

        Regarding the listing of ESR I think I did not realize that the DF (dissipation factor) could be used to derive the ESR as digikey explicitly lists ESR for some series of cap. So if I understand correctly I can calculate ESR=DF/(2*3.14*freq*C) or more importantly I can use the DF to compare the cap ESR's.

        After some more research into the problem and looking at the schematic it seems the caps are the output caps for a switching cap boost converter that pumps the voltage up to 400v. The PS is rated at 580w and so at 400v => 1.45A+ current plus a little more for efficiency/losses.

        Supposed rule of thumb I had seen is that capacitor ripple current is 2X the load current and there are two caps in parallel so the caps I have now 1.43A are already short.

        I decided to not take a chance and will put these ones in my spare parts bin and order some proper ones or postpone the replacement.

        For the digikey search the problem seems to be the large RC value and 30mm size. After enabling 25mm I found some that should have sufficient RC in my footprint. They are a little taller but I checked the case and they should fit ok:

        http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea...37374425314206

        There were Rubycons with almost identical specs as well but the fit was marginal.

        I picked up a cheapo component tester that supposedly measures ESR and attached the meter in parallel with the two caps. It shows the cap as expected and the ESR it reported as ~0.6ohm. I performed the same test with the two caps I had bought as replacement and they actually reported a smaller cap value and ESR only slightly better ~0.5ohm.

        I really dont trust the meters absolute value but given the side by side comparison with the new caps Im thinking they are probably OK and not the source of my problem.

        Thanks again for the help.

        Kuma

        Comment

        • keeney123
          Lauren
          • Sep 2014
          • 2536
          • United States

          #5
          Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

          ESR= Equivalent Series Resistor that is different from X of c or Xc


          Xc=1 / 2 X pi x F X C, "Xc is capacitance reactance"


          Xc is used with impedance


          Z= impedance in ohms {it is an alternating current resistance which has
          magnitude and direction}


          RC= Resistance X Capacitance {this equals one time constant}


          One Time Constant is the time it takes for a voltage source
          to charge a capacitor to 66.66...% of the
          source voltage through a series
          Resistor/Capacitor circuit.


          Each time constant charges the remaining voltage to 66.66...%


          5 time constant is considered fully charged although it never gets to one hundred %.

          Time constant can also be use for discharge.

          Many times time constant will be expressed in seconds, but does not have too.
          Last edited by keeney123; 02-27-2017, 12:29 PM.

          Comment

          • kumasan
            Member
            • Dec 2014
            • 22
            • usa

            #6
            Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

            So if I understand correctly the cap/datasheet I pointed to earlier in the thread does not list any ESR for the cap or any way to determine with the information they provide. So basically I cannot tell which of two similar caps has a lower ESR?

            If this is the case I guess these high voltage version caps are all non low-esr and so the manufacturer does not list any specs.

            Comment

            • keeney123
              Lauren
              • Sep 2014
              • 2536
              • United States

              #7
              Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

              Originally posted by kumasan
              So if I understand correctly the cap/datasheet I pointed to earlier in the thread does not list any ESR for the cap or any way to determine with the information they provide. So basically I cannot tell which of two similar caps has a lower ESR?

              If this is the case I guess these high voltage version caps are all non low-esr and so the manufacturer does not list any specs.


              So have you posted the cap data sheet?

              Comment

              • kumasan
                Member
                • Dec 2014
                • 22
                • usa

                #8
                Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

                Here is one such example datasheet that seems to not provide ESR spec:



                Seems as PeteS suggested, the higher voltage (>/= 160V) caps usually don't have their impedance specified.

                I ended up getting the same series caps in 30mmx40mm (old caps size) from Mouser, looks like they had them in stock.

                Thanks again for the assistance,

                Kuma

                Comment

                • keeney123
                  Lauren
                  • Sep 2014
                  • 2536
                  • United States

                  #9
                  Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

                  Originally posted by kumasan
                  Here is one such example datasheet that seems to not provide ESR spec:



                  Seems as PeteS suggested, the higher voltage (>/= 160V) caps usually don't have their impedance specified.

                  I ended up getting the same series caps in 30mmx40mm (old caps size) from Mouser, looks like they had them in stock.

                  Thanks again for the assistance,

                  Kuma

                  Did you see the thread I start about understanding this stuff? This is what is in the thread
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                  • keeney123
                    Lauren
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 2536
                    • United States

                    #10
                    Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

                    Originally posted by kumasan
                    Here is one such example datasheet that seems to not provide ESR spec:



                    Seems as PeteS suggested, the higher voltage (>/= 160V) caps usually don't have their impedance specified.

                    I ended up getting the same series caps in 30mmx40mm (old caps size) from Mouser, looks like they had them in stock.

                    Thanks again for the assistance,

                    Kuma

                    So the temperature coefficient of rated frequency is used by dividing it in to the specified rated ripple currect to give you the new maximum allowable rated ripple current. So at 200-250volts at 1khz frequency you have a coefficient of 1.32. If we go page 316 to ;
                    on the 200V chart for 330 uF we have a rated current of 1970 mA RMS we now take 1970/1.32=1492.42..
                    so at 1KHz that cap has capability of a maximum rms ripple current of 1492.42 mA instead of 1970 mA rms.
                    Last edited by keeney123; 02-28-2017, 04:16 PM.

                    Comment

                    • keeney123
                      Lauren
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 2536
                      • United States

                      #11
                      Re: Questions on ESR/RC, replacement cap selection

                      You can find out ESR from the tangent of loss.


                      Here is the equation Tan of loss or delta=DF=1/Q=ESR/Xc
                      DF=dissipation factor
                      Q=quality factor
                      ESR= equivalent series resistance
                      Xc= Capacitance reactance




                      rewrite equation
                      Tan of loss= ESR/Xc
                      tan of loss X Xc = ESR


                      Xc=1/2piFC
                      pi=3.14
                      F=frequency
                      C=capacitance

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