Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

[Wester547]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Sorry, I should have specified. I wrote that a long time ago but I was referencing the capacitance rating. It seems no CapXon series is exempt from trouble regarding any voltage load very close to the rated voltage.

[didyman]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

As for CapXon primaries, only their KM series seems to be dishonest about their high voltage capacitors, their other series, LP, HP, etc, not so.

HP is OK so far,. but LP had a series between 2006 and 2010 date codes developing this:

[mrmazda]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

My 6 year old Vizio TV hasn't my most important features replaceable by a new TV. New TVs are apparently all limited to one or two analog audio inputs, one composite video input and one component video input to go with however many newer types are available. Mine has two component video, two composite video, and three analog audio to share among them, and the 3.5 are already fewer than optimal. Plus, it has PIP and POP, and direct access to main inputs via dedicated remote buttons, instead of having to dig through menus to switch among main inputs. Lack of possible new replacements means I need to do whatever I reasonably can to keep it working.

Its mainboard is all Teapos and Taicons, very roughly 50 in total. Largest are 1000uf 16v and 470uf 25v Taicons. Among the rest, the lowest uf seem to be all or mostly the Teapos, the larger all or mostly Taicons. New mainboards for it are no longer available, though there is a limited supply of refurbs available, and a repair facility claiming repairs are commonly possible. Among the other modules in the TV I made no note of the cap brands, only that their total count is very low. Dare I let the sleeping dog lie? If not, which ought to be replaced, just the Teapos?

[Wester547]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Yes.

https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...712402d8ea.pdf

Note the Asiacon text marked in gold letters under Hermei. So yes, Asiacon is crap. Hence why the Asiacon LE in the linked YT video bulged on the +5V rail before the ADDA fan seized in that Hipro. Asiacon have used either the Jamicon style vents (which some older Teapos actually had too) or X shaped vents.

[momaka]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

In the future, just remember that Hermei = Asiacon.

Ugh, really?
Hermei are crappy at best - at least in my experience.
They also have different vent styles. Are they really the same?

My experience with the clamshell Dells does not show the CPU fan and PSU fan to jar with one another

The Dell Dimension 3000 and OptiPlex 170L (and other similar models) don't use a clammshell case. Actually, their case design isn't bad either, but it must be raised off of the floor and the front of the computer must be sticking out 2-3 inches, because there are two holes right under the plastic front bezel. If you cover these (i.e. place the case directly on the floor), the PC will struggle to take in air.

[Wester547]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Ah okay, I always get the two confused.
Asiacon seem to last quite a long time in HiPro PSUs. Haven't seen any (visually) failed. The Teapos always seem to do worse, but not by much (since HiPro uses larger D10 and D12.5 mm ones).

In the future, just remember that Hermei = Asiacon. I think the 8mm Teapos do worse than Asiacon but that the 10mm ones do about the same along with the G-Luxon and that the 13mm ones do better.

Yes, Newton and Delta (especially the non-PFC ones) seem to last forever. The one in my parent's PC (250W Newton, IIRC) has done close to 11000 hours now and about 6000 power cycles. While that doesn't seem much, I should also mention that in the summer, the room it is in gets close to 86F (30C) and the PSU fan used to regularly fight with the CPU/system fan for air (I just fixed that last week by raising the PC on stands off of the floor).

In Newton and Hipro power supplies, I have found the speed of the PSU fan to vary with two things: the temperature of the secondary heatsink (where the thermistor is located) and the ambient temperature. My experience with the clamshell Dells does not show the CPU fan and PSU fan to jar with one another, but I do think those cases have better ventilation which may be why.

I was actually surprised to find out that in those Newtons at least, once a Pentium 4 for an example hits 100% CPU usage for a while that the PSU fan starts picking up speed noticeably because the secondary heatsink, as massive as it is with overspec'd rectifiers, actually generates some heat (I tested this in a computer with the PSU mounted upside down, so because heat rises, the PCB's underside was somewhat warm as well... this was at 26*C ambient, but the PSU fan itself wasn't really kicking out any heat and the PSU case itself didn't feel warm either), far more heat than anything else in the PSU.

This must mean that the PSU is rather inefficient, especially with that large honeycomb stamp in the back and given the fact that the PSU fan does not spin slowly by any account. I have found these results to be consistent across two PSUs of very similar design (the NPS-250GB tested with a Pentium 4 Willamette 1.7 GHz and NPS-250KB with a Pentium 4 Northwood 2.66GHz), the only difference between them being that the +12V rectifiers (the NPS-250GB has a 10A and 16A ultrafast for +12V rectification and the NPS-250KB a single 20A schottky, but I think the later revisions of the NPS-250GB might have even had a 30A schottky in its place) and PSU fan controllers (a bit more aggressive in the NPS-250GB) are slightly different, and the fact that the NPS-250GB has 1500uF capacitors for +5V filtering instead of 2200uF capacitors (though 10V capacitors instead of 6.3V capacitors for +5V and +3.3V filtering) and a somewhat more efficient main switcher.

Just FYI, input caps in non-APFC PSUs are hardly stressed at all, so even really crappy brands tend to do okay.

To add to this, most of the time (when they haven't failed for whatever reason), Teapo's high voltage capacitors always seem to be in spec and last a long time, so I think their high voltage capacitors are decent at least.

[momaka]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Hipro never used Asia-X (Fuhjyyu), they used Asiacon (whose parent company, Kaimei, is also Jamicon's). Asiacon's quality, I don't know.

Ah okay, I always get the two confused.
Asiacon seem to last quite a long time in HiPro PSUs. Haven't seen any (visually) failed. The Teapos always seem to do worse, but not by much (since HiPro uses larger D10 and D12.5 mm ones).

The well ventilated and cooled Delta/Newton power supplies are very good indeed, however... I've also seen a NPS-250GB with 22,000 hours of use and 10,000 power cycles and all the LTEC LZG are still fine in it...

Yes, Newton and Delta (especially the non-PFC ones) seem to last forever. The one in my parent's PC (250W Newton, IIRC) has done close to 11000 hours now and about 6000 power cycles. While that doesn't seem much, I should also mention that in the summer, the room it is in gets close to 86F (30C) and the PSU fan used to regularly fight with the CPU/system fan for air (I just fixed that last week by raising the PC on stands off of the floor).

The problem with 'primaries' from TEAPO, OST and... Fuhjyyu are that the ripple tolerance is poor, they let excessive noise through, and will most likely not perform to spec.

And you checked this with a scope?

Just FYI, input caps in non-APFC PSUs are hardly stressed at all, so even really crappy brands tend to do okay.

[Wester547]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

I'd guess lti's Hipro runs warm because it has the fan in the front, which as aforementioned isn't the best design.

Continuing with the phenomenon, terms 'inconsistent' and 'heat sensitive' are used a lot-- but is that actually true? As mentioned previously, I found these capacitors exploded in locations where heat was not an issue-- and they were screwing my analog synthesizer over due to voltage sensitivity-- which on a small scale example would mean you should NEVER use them in a PSU.

Depends. The 8mm and smaller Teapos and really crappy series from G-Luxon (the lower ESR series ones) seem to fail whether they run hot or not, and sometimes even on the shelf. The larger diameter Teapos seem to do better. And I'd say it's safe to use them in a well cooled Newton/Delta PSU at least - they seem to be very good at getting LTEC to last. Also, another very good and older OEM, Win-tec (branded by PC Power & Cooling), used all Teapo back in the day, and I don't recall ever hearing issues with them because their server grade (I know, I hate calling a PSU with all Teapos server grade...) PSUs were designed well. Also, FWIW, I don't think Teapo make capacitors that qualify for the term audio grade to begin with.

The problem with 'primaries' from TEAPO, OST and... Fuhjyyu are that the ripple tolerance is poor, they let excessive noise through, and will most likely not perform to spec.

For primary capacitors (in SMPS units at least), I always thought the ripple and ESR rating was less of a concern and that it was the capacitance and voltage that was of concern, and Teapo, OST, and Fuhjyyu seem to perform in spec in that regard, unless they've failed of course.

I actually own LiteON, Delta, and HIPRO PSUs with quality caps-- depends if the OEM specifies this or not. For example, one AcBel PSU I own is stuffed to the brim with rubycons, the other half-width ATX AcBel had TEAPOs-- I threw it out; perhaps I should have recapped it as AcBel has nice designs.... oh well.

I found a Power Mac G5 AcBel stuffed with TEAPOs. Yeah... threw that sucker out.

In retrospect I think I should have kept those caps-- we could have done a nice experiment to 'show off' how they all behave. I'll stay on the lookout for some later.

Perhaps a voltage / ripple / ESR / noise / heat tolerance comparison would settle the (dare I say) 'inconsistent' opinions once and for all?

They are inconsistent, though, at least they used to be. The quality of aluminum mined in Taiwan and especially in China varies, and even their highest quality aluminum still stands inferior to average Japanese raw materials (I believe a study conducted in 2004 revealed the Taiwanese brands to use too much copper). These companies are inconsistent. They do not have consistent bungs, or datasheets, and the fact that sometimes these capacitors last a year and other times many years means that there is no way their quality is consistent. As for those OEMs, an OEM will build to the quality that they are contracted to build. Yes, some Hipros and Lite-ons actually have all Japanese capacitors, and some ACBELs and of course Newton/Deltas do as well. Others have all Taiwanese. Also, the reason that I use the term heat sensitive is because technically speaking, heat is the weak point of all electrolytic capacitors, not just crappy ones. Heat will just kill the crappy ones much faster. Also, it would be difficult to change people's opinions because everyone here has had different experiences with different brands (except of course the worst ones), because once again, their quality is inconsistent. :P

[theokretes]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Of course, by all of this I am never admonishing the use of bad capacitors. Heat will always kill crappy brands much faster than it will Japanese brands with exception to their dud series. I just find the real problem with the bad brands to be inconsistency, which I would agree is also Teapo's problem. Sometimes they last, sometimes they don't. I think people use them because as momaka said, it helps to save the good brands for mission critical stuff.

Continuing with the phenomenon, terms 'inconsistent' and 'heat sensitive' are used a lot-- but is that actually true? As mentioned previously, I found these capacitors exploded in locations where heat was not an issue-- and they were screwing my analog synthesizer over due to voltage sensitivity-- which on a small scale example would mean you should NEVER use them in a PSU.

Well, it has to be. Sometimes it is just not worth bothering to recap, say a PSU, if you know that the owner will likely throw it away in a year or two and if the crappy caps are still holding up. Best example of that is Delta, LiteON, and HiPro PSUs.
Delta regularly uses Ltec and Taicon and in most cases they do hold up fine for many years. Same goes for LiteON and OST as well as HiPro and Asia-X.

Also, primary / high voltage capacitors from Teapo, OST, and Fuhjyyu rarely fail, whereas more crappy brands such as CapXon fail a lot more often or show lower capacitance than what is printed on their label.

The problem with 'primaries' from TEAPO, OST and... Fuhjyyu are that the ripple tolerance is poor, they let excessive noise through, and will most likely not perform to spec.

I actually own LiteON, Delta, and HIPRO PSUs with quality caps-- depends if the OEM specifies this or not. For example, one AcBel PSU I own is stuffed to the brim with rubycons, the other half-width ATX AcBel had TEAPOs-- I threw it out; perhaps I should have recapped it as AcBel has nice designs.... oh well.

I found a Power Mac G5 AcBel stuffed with TEAPOs. Yeah... threw that sucker out.

In retrospect I think I should have kept those caps-- we could have done a nice experiment to 'show off' how they all behave. I'll stay on the lookout for some later.

Perhaps a voltage / ripple / ESR / noise / heat tolerance comparison would settle the (dare I say) 'inconsistent' opinions once and for all?

[lti]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

On the other hand, lti posted a power supply (HP-P2507F3C, also full of Asiacon excepting Panasonic primaries) that had 8-9 years of 24/7 use and even after the ADDA fan seized (not because of a lack of a lubricant but because the thermistor fell out of the metal clip), only one Asiacon, a 2200uF 10V 10x20 Asiacon LE on the input of the +3.3V rail, visibly bulged, and the fan had seized for quite a while.

It wasn't seized. It wasn't receiving enough voltage to start spinning.

I still use an old Hipro PSU from 1999 with its original Teapo, G-Luxon, and Su'scon caps. It was poorly cooled because the original fan wasn't very good. It was a ball bearing Minebea fan, but it had low airflow and was loud. The case got warm around the PSU, and that was with the fan running at 12V. It has a fan controller, but it increases the voltage so quickly that the fan might as well be connected directly to 12V.

[Wester547]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Delta regularly uses Ltec and Taicon and in most cases they do hold up fine for many years. Same goes for LiteON and OST as well as HiPro and Asia-X.

Hipro never used Asia-X (Fuhjyyu), they used Asiacon (whose parent company, Kaimei, is also Jamicon's). Asiacon's quality, I don't know. You can actually see one failed (bulged) here on the input of the +5V PI filter in a Dell Dimension 8200 power supply (HP-P2507F3P with a manufacture date of September of 2001 with Asiacon on the output and Panasonic on the input), a 4700uF 10V 13x31 Asiacon LE (I pointed this out to him in the comments and he replaced it, and that series isn't general purpose but a direct cross to Panasonic FK, basically) The ADDA fan hadn't yet failed but was starting to sound grungy so the person in the video oiled it. The PSU was still working with the failed capacitor, for how long though I don't know.

But if you watch the video in 720p or 1080p and turn the brightness of your monitor up, you can actually see the blades of the fan spinning without the person using a flashlight, so Hipro doesn't have the most aggressive fan controllers in their PSUs (but are far from the worst as they still spin much faster than that of the Antec/CWT SmartPower debacle). On the other hand, lti posted a power supply (HP-P2507F3C, also full of Asiacon excepting Panasonic primaries) that had 8-9 years of 24/7 use and even after the ADDA fan seized (not because of a lack of a lubricant but because the thermistor fell out of the metal clip), only one Asiacon, a 2200uF 10V 10x20 Asiacon LE on the input of the +3.3V rail, visibly bulged, and the fan had seized for quite a while. And the Asiacons on the +12V rail and +5V output of my Hipro also survived after the fan seized (so did the G-Luxon and Teapo present in the PSU, somehow), after 16,000 hours of use. So I think it's fair to say that Asiacon's quality is just inconsistent.

Not sure if Lite-on power supplies are that great either - Pete had one fail after 4 years of use because of bad OSTs and LTEC LZPs. But then Pentium4 posted one two years ago that had six years of daily use and none of the capacitors had failed (OST and LTEC being the brands on the output), so once again, inconsistency. Lite-on PSUs also seem to have a penchant for going bad for non-cap reasons, even before the conductive glue in their units has the chance to blacken (if there). The well ventilated and cooled Delta/Newton power supplies are very good indeed, however. P4 posted one two years ago and it had 30,000 hours of use with all the LTEC LZG on the output still being fine. Mind you this was a design that had the fan in the front, like the Liteon P4 posted, so not the best design but they still held up because Delta/Newton know what they're doing. I've also seen a NPS-250GB with 22,000 hours of use and 10,000 power cycles and all the LTEC LZG are still fine in it (it did have a well oiled Sunon fan however which spun fast enough to move copious air). As for CapXon primaries, only their KM series seems to be dishonest about their high voltage capacitors, their other series, LP, HP, etc, not so.

Of course, by all of this I am never admonishing the use of bad capacitors. Heat will always kill crappy brands much faster than it will Japanese brands with exception to their dud series. I just find the real problem with the bad brands to be inconsistency, which I would agree is also Teapo's problem. Sometimes they last, sometimes they don't. I think people use them because as momaka said, it helps to save the good brands for mission critical stuff.

[momaka]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

However, I'm pretty sure all of the green/gold TEAPOs have the circular bungs.

No, some of them have a flat bung. Like I said, I have a bunch of small gold/green 6.3V, 1000 uF Teapo SC, all in 8 mm diameter, and they do have different bungs.

I suppose it personally disturbs me that consideration is still given to these brands.

Well, it has to be. Sometimes it is just not worth bothering to recap, say a PSU, if you know that the owner will likely throw it away in a year or two and if the crappy caps are still holding up. Best example of that is Delta, LiteON, and HiPro PSUs.
Delta regularly uses Ltec and Taicon and in most cases they do hold up fine for many years. Same goes for LiteON and OST as well as HiPro and Asia-X.

Also, primary / high voltage capacitors from Teapo, OST, and Fuhjyyu rarely fail, whereas more crappy brands such as CapXon fail a lot more often or show lower capacitance than what is printed on their label.

[lti]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

^
I've seen those pre-teapo G-Luxons fail left, right and center. They were right down with GSC/Sacon IMO.

I haven't personally seen a bad one, but I have seen lots of pictures of them. The green ones used on motherboards seemed to be junk, but the standard general purpose and low ESR caps don't seem to be that bad. I think they're better than CapXon.

I suppose it personally disturbs me that consideration is still given to these brands.

I wouldn't buy them new, but I'll take caps from junk electronics and use them in non-critical projects that only I will use. I know they aren't good, but they're good enough for what I'm doing. There's no point in looking for these brands of caps when I can get Nichicon or Panasonic caps from DigiKey instead.

[theokretes]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Looks like I have been very "lucky" then. Almost all Fuhjyyu caps that I have encountered so far have performed may years of service in PSUs - most were still in spec upon ESR meter inspection too (yes, I did pull more than a few out). It's when the heat goes up that they die. Had three PSUs with seized fans, and all three had Fuhjyyus bulging. The others in other PSUs were fine.

I guess we will see, though. Someone from BCN sent me a new PSU. It's well-built but has mostly Fuhyyu caps inside (along with a few scattered Teapos). I'm planning to use it AS-IS in a non-critical PC. Will let you know how long it takes to cook those caps. The PC will have a Pentium D 830 CPU. That in itself should clue you in on the kind of torture expected .



Regular, as in general purpose Japanese ones?
I think you are exaggerating here.
OST is not too bad, but I suggest everyone to avoid their RLX and RLZ series (i.e. the ultra-low ESR ones on motherboards). They don't do well with heat. RLP and RLG is fairly okay, but again - no heat abuse. Only RLS seems to be a bit more stable - these I've seen and pulled from plenty of hot running equipment, and they were still in spec


Hardly true.
Like Heihachi_73, I've seen them with bull's-eye circular bungs (i.e. multiple rings inside), single ring bung, and flat bung. Moreover, this variation can often be observed in a single series. For example, I pulled probably about 100 or so small Teapo SC 6.3V 1000uF 8mm caps from HP DC5000 computers. All of them had the three variations I mentioned above. So Teapo likely has multiple lines or even multiple factories for their caps. And the fact that they have different bungs tells me that they don't always build their caps up to their "design" specs.
Based on those 6.3V 1000uF SCs I pulled, I tried to make sense of which bungs yielded the most fail. The result was... inconclussive. Teapo caps just fail at will (and even more so with just a slight hint of heat).

Anyways, I'm not trying to advocate the use of these Chinese and Taiwanese caps. Just simply trying to distinguish between which ones will likely need changing right away, and which ones may just run for another mile or so.
Therefore, the bottom line is: if you care about some piece of equipment, recap it with good quality Japanese caps.

Well there was a Lenovo motherboard I saw littered with failed exploded baby OSTs near some Rubycon MBZs that were fine... temperature was not a factor.
(I still attest that MBZ does not have a premature 100 hour rating like MCZ)

Some Teapos also use this bung.

Actually I think I remember seeing that type a long while back. However, I'm pretty sure all of the green/gold TEAPOs have the circular bungs.

^
I've seen those pre-teapo G-Luxons fail left, right and center. They were right down with GSC/Sacon IMO.

This is sort of the 'phenomenon' I wanted to explore with this topic: as there's a lot of variances with how people rate bottom of the barrel capacitor manufacturers. Some say they're decent, terrible, fantastic, etc.

I suppose it personally disturbs me that consideration is still given to these brands.

[c_hegge]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

^
I've seen those pre-teapo G-Luxons fail left, right and center. They were right down with GSC/Sacon IMO.

[lti]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

I haven't had a problem with G-Luxon caps, but I haven't seen any of the newer ones. The older ones that weren't made by Teapo weren't that bad.

[Jooo]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Some Teapos also use this bung.

[momaka]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Fuhjyyu in my opinion are possibly *the worst* capacitors. I don't think it's a matter of inconsistencies, but pure chance if they'll actually 'work' as a capacitor.

Looks like I have been very "lucky" then. Almost all Fuhjyyu caps that I have encountered so far have performed may years of service in PSUs - most were still in spec upon ESR meter inspection too (yes, I did pull more than a few out). It's when the heat goes up that they die. Had three PSUs with seized fans, and all three had Fuhjyyus bulging. The others in other PSUs were fine.

I guess we will see, though. Someone from BCN sent me a new PSU. It's well-built but has mostly Fuhyyu caps inside (along with a few scattered Teapos). I'm planning to use it AS-IS in a non-critical PC. Will let you know how long it takes to cook those caps. The PC will have a Pentium D 830 CPU. That in itself should clue you in on the kind of torture expected .

OST always fail in situations where regular capacitors are still operating fine. Unacceptable.

Regular, as in general purpose Japanese ones?
I think you are exaggerating here.
OST is not too bad, but I suggest everyone to avoid their RLX and RLZ series (i.e. the ultra-low ESR ones on motherboards). They don't do well with heat. RLP and RLG is fairly okay, but again - no heat abuse. Only RLS seems to be a bit more stable - these I've seen and pulled from plenty of hot running equipment, and they were still in spec

Also TEAPOs always use bungs with a circular pattern:

Hardly true.
Like Heihachi_73, I've seen them with bull's-eye circular bungs (i.e. multiple rings inside), single ring bung, and flat bung. Moreover, this variation can often be observed in a single series. For example, I pulled probably about 100 or so small Teapo SC 6.3V 1000uF 8mm caps from HP DC5000 computers. All of them had the three variations I mentioned above. So Teapo likely has multiple lines or even multiple factories for their caps. And the fact that they have different bungs tells me that they don't always build their caps up to their "design" specs.
Based on those 6.3V 1000uF SCs I pulled, I tried to make sense of which bungs yielded the most fail. The result was... inconclussive. Teapo caps just fail at will (and even more so with just a slight hint of heat).

Anyways, I'm not trying to advocate the use of these Chinese and Taiwanese caps. Just simply trying to distinguish between which ones will likely need changing right away, and which ones may just run for another mile or so.
Therefore, the bottom line is: if you care about some piece of equipment, recap it with good quality Japanese caps.

[Heihachi_73]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

I've seen a number of different bungs on even genuine Teapo caps:

Circles inside circles (6 rings visible)
Circle inside circle (2-3 rings visible, as pictured above)
Single circle
I-beam shape (bung split in half like more expensive caps)
Completely flat (560uF SK filter caps with normal leads)

[Rulycat]

Re: Why do people use TEAPO / YAGEO / G-LUXON?

Fuhjyyu in my opinion are possibly *the worst* capacitors. I don't think it's a matter of inconsistencies, but pure chance if they'll actually 'work' as a capacitor.

OST always fail in situations where regular capacitors are still operating fine. Unacceptable.

So from what I gather, TEAPO is simply just left in things that aren't important. I'm not sure if I would go through the effort to purchase some though... especially since they seem to be more expensive that quality capacitors at lower values-- most likely due to price spiking from resellers.

Also TEAPOs always use bungs with a circular pattern:


You can often find fake rubycons / nichicons with those bungs. As such I'm not convinced there are 'counterfeit' TEAPOs if they are themselves used to make counterfeits...

I had some counterfeit teapos with a non-circular bung and the weird off-X vent. It's probably in my thread history somewhere. I've thrown them out now though.