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    Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

    It came from a Pentium II Machine btw. The owner brought it in last week saying he hadn't used it for a while and just needed his data saved off it.
    I love putting bad caps and flat batteries in fire and watching them explode!!

    No wonder it doesn't work! You installed the jumper wires backwards

    Main PC: Core i7 3770K 3.5GHz, Gigabyte GA-Z77M-D3H-MVP, 8GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 1600, 240GB Intel 335 Series SSD, 750GB WD HDD, Sony Optiarc DVD RW, Palit nVidia GTX660 Ti, CoolerMaster N200 Case, Delta DPS-600MB 600W PSU, Hauppauge TV Tuner, Windows 7 Home Premium

    Office PC: HP ProLiant ML150 G3, 2x Xeon E5335 2GHz, 4GB DDR2 RAM, 120GB Intel 530 SSD, 2x 250GB HDD, 2x 450GB 15K SAS HDD in RAID 1, 1x 2TB HDD, nVidia 8400GS, Delta DPS-650BB 650W PSU, Windows 7 Pro

    Comment


      Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

      Originally posted by Behemot View Post
      You are trying me right?

      First, I have never ever said anything about some VA meter, if someone is using such crap he is fool in the first palce.

      Second, I am telling you it bloody matters if the unit has PFC or not. Most wall meters simply do not have fast enough sampling rate (which should in terms of MHz at least) to catch all the current harmonics of unit without PFC. As a result, they measure bullshit.
      You speak bullshit.

      Originally posted by Behemot View Post
      Ranging from about -50 % of actual power to +50 % of actual power. Often it actually fluctuates between these values in real time.
      You're really stuck on stupid, aren't you!! Of course it fluctuates! The computer you're measuring has ups-n-downs on the CPU, and other, loads.

      Nice job contradicting yourself, too. "From about -50 % of actual power to +50 % of actual power." Excuse me! You're not even reading "actual," real, power unless it's a wattmeter, spinning disc W-Hr meter, TRMS DMM/scope/etc.

      Have you ever even timed your POCO watthour meter, to see what you were using that very moment?

      Originally posted by Behemot View Post
      To measure that you need power analyzer which is built for such task in the first place.
      Just like you need a "specific" device to measure currents below 100mA? You didn't think I'd forget about that litte tirade with Kiriakos, did you?

      Again, all you need is either a wattmeter, such that the disc is acted upon by the [b]vector sum[b] of the flux from the V and I coils. Or, a TRMS DMM (or equivalent adapter for meter or scope) like the venerable Fluke 89. For "rougher" use, something likethe Fieldpiece HS36.

      This:
      http://www.candura.com/products/pqpro.html
      is not used for measuring small-fry computer power supplies.

      Don't try backpedalling, you've got your "sponsership" too far up your ass. Oh- wait, isn't it "maker madness" now?

      You know, you almost seemed interested in one of my posts awhile back, where I mentioned scoping signal lines on a troublesome motherboard; you asked me to elaborate, and I did. Then, you never responded- as if you were put off (threatened?) by the detail I went into.

      But what the hell do I know? I don't have a "website" where I "review" power supplies, therefore, according to you, I don't know two shits about watts, VARs, VA, and PF.

      I guess I should just hack a website together, right? Then I can be god's gift to power supplies!!!


      You're not weaseling your way out of this one.

      Here are your power analyzers:
      http://www.hialeahmeter.com/siphwame.html

      The hell does PFC have to do with watt-hours recorded on a spinning disk meter?!?! Helll-lo! Anyone home? We don't have three-phase secondary-level distribution here, dammit, for typical resi services. Schools, offices, lite commercial (includes retail), anyplace with 480V services (or 480/277->208/120 stepdowns) or plain 3ph-4w 208/120 services (apartment "blocks," dormatories)- you will have triplens on the neutral from all the capacitor input supplies as the caps all charge at the peaks of the sinewave.

      So the neutral is upsized! It's called a "super neutral!"

      But for the common, single-phase pot, such as this one:

      your theory is flawed.

      The thousands of caps all "thumping" each half cycle to recharge is a real problem: flat-topping the sinewave. Scope the AC line with the correct divider probe and you'll see!

      Don't come in here talking about how much bandwidth is supposedly required to measure anything. How much was there, for the last hundred years, in those old spinning disk meters? Say nothing about the newer "solid state" meters; bigger services have CTs and PTs to step the currents/voltages down to an acceptable level for metering. Applies, partly or completely, to anything from the 800A 208 service all the way to multi-feed primary-level, as for a modern hospital.
      Last edited by kaboom; 09-30-2015, 08:25 PM.
      "pokemon go... to hell!"

      EOL it...
      Originally posted by shango066
      All style and no substance.
      Originally posted by smashstuff30
      guilty,guilty,guilty,guilty!
      guilty of being cheap-made!

      Comment


        Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

        Originally posted by ReeceyBurger123 View Post
        You really dont like Watt meters do you :L
        Ignore that prick. There was a big fallout a few years ago, before you joined, over the same kind of issue.

        It wast he absurd claim that APFC made the power supply so equipped more efficient. Misleading at best, patently false at middling, things I won't repeat at worst.

        I ask you, why do the semiconductors in the PFC booster require heatsinks? Why does that boost inductor require quality cores wound with heavy wire? The answer, except for certain people, is self-evident.

        The PFC booster, in itself, is a power supply, while uniquely configured, whose output feeds the single/double switch, half/full bridge "main" power supply. That's the one, in a computer, that give +/-12, +5, +3.3. +5VSB comes from part of the aux supply, always active with line voltage, independent of whether the booster is running.

        There can be many power supply circuits in the box people call "power supply." The Dell Precision series (690, for instance) 1KW unit contains five power supplies!

        Two aux supplies, one isolated (5VSB, supervisory opamps), and a line-connected one for driving the power MOSFETs in the booster and step-downs.

        One 12V stepdown converter, for all the +/-12 load in the computer; over half the capacity is right here. It may be as much a 2/3 total capacity, split over several rails, with shunts to monitor current.

        One 5/3.3 stepdown for raw voltage for +5 and +3.3. Each of those hits a magamp for truly independent regulation.

        And finally, the PFC-booster.
        "pokemon go... to hell!"

        EOL it...
        Originally posted by shango066
        All style and no substance.
        Originally posted by smashstuff30
        guilty,guilty,guilty,guilty!
        guilty of being cheap-made!

        Comment


          Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

          Replying ad-hoc to some of the posts here, in the case of my shitty Etech PM-300 power meter the problem is I think that it can be fooled simply by a capacitor between phase and neutral.

          Originally posted by Per Hansson
          Agreed, I have a Etech PM-300 power meter and just a few weeks ago figured out it's completely useless.
          It was showing 32w consumption from a PSU with nothing connected to it when it was off, and sure the 5VSB can be inefficient on old PSU's but not THAT bad
          I bought a Voltcraft Energy Check 3000 instead ofter checking some reviews, it shows a more sensible 3.7w under the same conditions
          Turns out my original meter does not handle VA at all, yet the display shows "watt"
          Yea right, watt if you load it with a purely resistive load like an incandescent light bulb, but I think I can read the rating on those myself so don't need a meter for that
          Originally posted by momaka View Post
          Well, it is weird, because I have the same Kill-a-Watt as coreAngel, but I haven't seen it get tricked by non PFC PSUs yet. Actually, only APFC units tend to trick it. In particular, I have one PSU that shows to be drawing something like 8 or 9 Watts with nothing on the 5 VSB. Compare that to less than 2 Watts for my PPFC HiPro PSUs and about 2 to 7 Watts for my other standard 2-transistor designs (all without load and in "soft-off" mode).
          I forgot to mention one thing, yes it shows 32w with an Antec TruePower 2.0 PFC PSU in standby (i.e. 5vsb active but nothing connected and PSU "off")
          But if I turn off the rocker switch on the PSU the meter shows 16w, that's how I figured it out.
          I.e. X and Y caps between phase/neutral and phase/neutral and ground respectively is enough to fool it!
          The new power meter I bought shows 0w with the rocker switch off and 3.7w with 5vsb active but nothing connected...
          Attached Files
          "The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."

          Comment


            Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

            This thing:

            Velleman netbsem5

            Works surprisingly well, it can read accurately from 0.1W AC from a mini-ITX system in standby, to ~1500W AC from a washing machine for a brief moment when it starts centrifuging, and from Oh Deers to modern PSUs.

            190~250VAC only, Schuko plug.
            Last edited by TELVM; 10-02-2015, 01:22 AM.

            Comment


              Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

              Originally posted by kaboom View Post
              …bs…
              Let the true speak for itself.
              https://www.hwworld.cz/files/SilverC...334-FR_PFC.rar
              Unless you come up with some wild theory like we should not believe our own eyes and you are at least half the person you are trying to imply you are, I expect an apology.

              For those who can talk like adults and do not need wet rag on their head first, this is my SilverCrest meter and undisclosed 550W PSU prototype runing roughly on maximum power.

              Now I had that wonderfull Voltcraft Energy Monitor 3000 and it was better, but even that one was easily fooled at some moment unless the unit had power factor correction. That one died so I opened it and know basic principle of its operation which is common for all these wall meters. So I am fucking sure what I am talking about, unles Mr. Clever here. These cheap meters are intended just for simple resistive, capacitative or inductive load (or combination of both), not SMPS with harmonic distortion on frequencies starting at 60 kHz. So when your wall meter shows crap, it is crap as it is just unable to measure what flows through that.

              TELVM: yeah, those are the specifications. Do you still believe them after what I showed you? Why else do you think most power analyzers start at 500 USD yet they often still cannot even measure THD for that price? I have selected one chinese analyzer which is and I am working my ass hard to get it so I can finally make really accurate readings.
              Last edited by Behemot; 10-02-2015, 03:12 AM. Reason: typos
              Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts

              Exclusive caps, meters and more!
              Hardware Insights - power supply reviews and more!

              Comment


                Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                Something brand new:

                Attached Files

                Comment


                  Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                  brand new and i still see the damm brown glue!
                  Originally posted by Stefan Payne View Post
                  Something brand new:

                  Comment


                    Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                    Originally posted by Per Hansson View Post
                    But if I turn off the rocker switch on the PSU the meter shows 16w, that's how I figured it out.
                    I.e. X and Y caps between phase/neutral and phase/neutral and ground respectively is enough to fool it!
                    Interesting.
                    I tested my P3 Kill-a-Watt with a PSU like that (i.e. one that has an X cap between L-N and 2 Y caps between L-G-N... all of this before the rocker switch).
                    Result: 0 Watts with rocker switch in the OFF position. So I guess my meter isn't fooled at least by that .

                    Originally posted by TELVM
                    190~250VAC only, Schuko plug.
                    Yay, Schuko plug! .
                    Wish I had a few in my room, along with 230/240 V AC.

                    Comment


                      Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                      Originally posted by kaboom View Post
                      Ignore that prick. There was a big fallout a few years ago, before you joined, over the same kind of issue.

                      It wast he absurd claim that APFC made the power supply so equipped more efficient. Misleading at best, patently false at middling, things I won't repeat at worst.

                      I ask you, why do the semiconductors in the PFC booster require heatsinks? Why does that boost inductor require quality cores wound with heavy wire? The answer, except for certain people, is self-evident.

                      The PFC booster, in itself, is a power supply, while uniquely configured, whose output feeds the single/double switch, half/full bridge "main" power supply. That's the one, in a computer, that give +/-12, +5, +3.3. +5VSB comes from part of the aux supply, always active with line voltage, independent of whether the booster is running.

                      There can be many power supply circuits in the box people call "power supply." The Dell Precision series (690, for instance) 1KW unit contains five power supplies!

                      Two aux supplies, one isolated (5VSB, supervisory opamps), and a line-connected one for driving the power MOSFETs in the booster and step-downs.

                      One 12V stepdown converter, for all the +/-12 load in the computer; over half the capacity is right here. It may be as much a 2/3 total capacity, split over several rails, with shunts to monitor current.

                      One 5/3.3 stepdown for raw voltage for +5 and +3.3. Each of those hits a magamp for truly independent regulation.

                      And finally, the PFC-booster.
                      I know right, thanks for the info
                      Last edited by ReeceyBurger123; 10-03-2015, 05:36 PM.
                      Please Do Not PM My Page Asking For Help Badcaps Is The Place For Advise, Page Linked For Business Reasons Only. Anyone Doing So Will Be Banned Instantly !

                      https://www.facebook.com/Telford-Tel...7894576335359/

                      Comment


                        Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                        Originally posted by momaka View Post
                        ... Yay, Schuko plug! .
                        Wish I had a few in my room, along with 230/240 V AC.
                        I wish our Schukos had unambiguous 'polarity' like your sockets do.

                        Last edited by TELVM; 10-04-2015, 03:30 AM.

                        Comment


                          Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                          Here the rest of that unit I posted yesterday:


                          I think I don't need to say anything, do I?
                          Well, except for:
                          Thanks to Caseking.de for that unit
                          Originally posted by TELVM View Post
                          I wish our Schukos had
                          Well, depends..
                          Sometimes it's better to have the other...

                          Anyway: Schuko = Schutz Kontakt -> protected contact.
                          Another one for the idiotic names category (like every BUS there was or is in your IBM compatible PC X-D like Peripheral Component Interconnect...)
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Stefan Payne; 10-04-2015, 04:42 AM.

                          Comment


                            Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                            Originally posted by momaka View Post
                            Interesting.
                            I tested my P3 Kill-a-Watt with a PSU like that (i.e. one that has an X cap between L-N and 2 Y caps between L-G-N... all of this before the rocker switch).
                            Result: 0 Watts with rocker switch in the OFF position. So I guess my meter isn't fooled at least by that .
                            They have internal power draw as long as you don't power them by batteries. My current meter always states at least 0.5 W because of that.

                            Stefan Payne: HEC? Interesting, I would have guessed some chinese maker…
                            Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts

                            Exclusive caps, meters and more!
                            Hardware Insights - power supply reviews and more!

                            Comment


                              Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                              Well, it's the same PCB as be quiets L8 series and some others...
                              EVGA also has some similar designs.

                              Just in a 350W version with tiny heatsinks...

                              Interesting thing by the way: With 360W primary load, that one is more silent than a Seasonic G-Series or Enermax Triathlor unit...

                              Comment


                                Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                                That does not mean anything…look at CM G550M, it is so silent…because the fan is hardly spinning and it was the first unit to overheat with sweater.

                                When you put slow fan in there it will be silent, but the consequences…
                                Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts

                                Exclusive caps, meters and more!
                                Hardware Insights - power supply reviews and more!

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                                  Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                                  To use a PSU inside a sweater is not specified, so it is not something a PSU has to endure...

                                  Besides: The 0,5A fan inside the Cougar STX350 isn't that slow...
                                  According to my calculation that fan should be something around 3000rpm @ 12V or so (-500rpm)...

                                  Comment


                                    Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                                    Well the maximum may be fixed by the fan controller…

                                    It is not specified but good manufacturers have their units tested if they can work or at least safely die (without harming connected equipement) under special conditions like stuck fan. And some users, well…the sweater is nice simulation of situation between these two
                                    Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts

                                    Exclusive caps, meters and more!
                                    Hardware Insights - power supply reviews and more!

                                    Comment


                                      Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                                      Well for proper testing you need to see what the maximum operating temperature the PSU is rated for and then test at that temperature to see if it can meet the claims.

                                      A sweater may help with this, but you need to do measurements too
                                      "Tantalum for the brave, Solid Aluminium for the wise, Wet Electrolytic for the adventurous"
                                      -David VanHorn

                                      Comment


                                        Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                                        Most PSUs are rated at 25C ambient. Lite-ON, on the other hand, usually rate their PSUs to meet specs up to 50C.

                                        Comment


                                          Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2

                                          Yeah, many Lower End Units are specced at 25 or 35°C Room Temperature, more higher end units are specced for 40-50°C, where 40°C room temperature becomes more and more the standard than 50°C...

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