Protect your power supply outputs!

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  • Th3_uN1Qu3
    Believe in
    • Jul 2010
    • 6031
    • Romania

    #1

    Protect your power supply outputs!

    Last week i replaced a mainboard in a LG plasma. The board was unrepairable as the main CPU went short on the 3.3v rail. Just the next day after i replaced it, i get called that it now does the same thing again (powers up, no picture) and that before it went out there was a pop noise.

    I went to inspect the damage, and there was a lot. A surge had gone thru the HDMI input, blew the resistors on that input, burned a hole in the HDMI switch and killed two traces, blew a little transistor that had something to do with switching the HDMI too and i also found the tuner chip and the audio amplifier shorted out after i removed the HDMI switch. Also blown was a 1 ohm resistor which connected the 3.3v regulator to these devices.

    Somehow, the CPU's audio section, which was also powered from the same 3.3v rail these things were on, made it alive. It had an inductor before the ceramic filter caps, likely that's why. I was able to fix most of this board using parts from the other board with the dead CPU. Two HDMI inputs and the tuner no longer work, but it is used with a single STB and nothing else anyway, so it's not that big of a deal. The tuner should have worked but for some reason the Intel (yeah, really!) tuner chip decided to blow itself up at some point between pulling it from the old board and soldering it to the new one.

    Now, the STB's HDMI output was also shot, likely it died along with the first mainboard, but i didn't think much of it at that time, we tried another STB when i swapped the board and the HDMI worked on that one, so we left it at that. After the second board blew, i checked the ground of the coax going into the STB, and the mains testing screwdriver glowed. Ouch. The STB has no earth connection, it is powered from a wall wart, and the only path for that coax to mains earth is thru... the plasma's HDMI connector. The plasma's power supply has an earth connection and the mains earth in the house was correctly done.

    This is one of those cases where it wouldn't have blown if the TV were plugged incorrectly in a socket that was not earthed. I asked the woman's husband to run an earth connection to the TV cable splitter and there should be no more problems with any TV due to this kind of surge. This should be the cable company's responsibility, but even here in my apartment you get a shock if you touch the coax and something earthed at the same time, so they don't care.

    Now, looking at this, it is likely that a simple, cheap 3.6v 1W zener would have eaten that surge for breakfast, limiting the damage to maybe one HDMI input. Or, worst case it would have shorted out first instead of having half the ICs on the board blow up.

    So, next time you design or troubleshoot a power supply intended to feed expensive stuff, put some damn zeners on the output. Even if you got a linear reg before your MCU - if that regulator shorts out (and they certainly do if the maximum input voltage is exceeded), then the full input voltage will be applied to your little processor, and you can be pretty sure the magic smoke will escape. A $0.1 zener can save a $100 processor - just think about it.

    I know that most devices nowadays include on-chip zeners or ESD protection diodes, but relying on them is stupid. If an on-chip protection diode shorts out, the whole device is rended inoperable anyway, so they are absolutely pointless. I can understand the (ab)use of a built-in zener on a $1 mosfet in a cheap one-transistor SMPS, but relying on protection diodes built into a complex digital circuit is very bad engineering practice. *hint* ASUS *hint*

    Hope you learned something tonight.
    Last edited by Th3_uN1Qu3; 12-10-2015, 05:08 PM.
    Originally posted by PeteS in CA
    Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
    A working TV? How boring!
  • Behemot
    Badcaps Legend
    • Dec 2009
    • 4845
    • CZ

    #2
    Re: Protect your power supply outputs!

    Well I guess that is the reason why in old equippement the coax tuners were made as separate, heavily shielded, grounded and insulated modules? Now they just hook small ICs directly to the coax input and do not even ground the whole device, while the device is INTEDED for connecting high-potential path to 3rd devices which most likely WILL be grounded through poorly grounded data cable. Regardless the fact that on an antena cabling, and that even applies for ground cable, tens of kV may be induced during bad weather or nearby lightning. Do I understand it correctly?

    Wouldn't it be better to just think little further than the PSU and somewhat ground the whole STB?
    Last edited by Behemot; 12-10-2015, 07:31 PM.
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    • Th3_uN1Qu3
      Believe in
      • Jul 2010
      • 6031
      • Romania

      #3
      Re: Protect your power supply outputs!

      Read the whole thing - i recommended running an earth wire to the coax cable splitter, which is located outside the house. That way any surges will no longer reach the STB and will not come anywhere near the TV.

      The tuner in the plasma was properly grounded and shielded, dunno about the one in the STB as i did not take that apart.
      Originally posted by PeteS in CA
      Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
      A working TV? How boring!

      Comment

      • Behemot
        Badcaps Legend
        • Dec 2009
        • 4845
        • CZ

        #4
        Re: Protect your power supply outputs!

        I am talking about the device itself which should always be resistant against such things! Exactly for this reasons. And what if the ground wire gets separated? Than you are screwed again. Obviously it was not much insulated from the rest of the circuit when the HV has been injected into the box.
        Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts

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        • Th3_uN1Qu3
          Believe in
          • Jul 2010
          • 6031
          • Romania

          #5
          Re: Protect your power supply outputs!

          The ground wire can be attached to the splitter with a screw, washer and nut as the splitter is designed to be wall mounted. So it will not come loose.

          I would not blame the tuner design in the STB but rather the lack of protection for the HDMI output, as judging by the blown traces, the surge also went thru the data lines. A STB is cheap, so cheap that the cable provider will replace it for free when it breaks (because they know they're crap) but how about that $1000 TV that is no longer under warranty?
          Originally posted by PeteS in CA
          Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
          A working TV? How boring!

          Comment

          • Behemot
            Badcaps Legend
            • Dec 2009
            • 4845
            • CZ

            #6
            Re: Protect your power supply outputs!

            Now I would because exactly cause the lack of proper separation was feeding the power into the TV. So properly unseparated STB killed the TV. OFC the TV could implement some safeties, but. I am not exactly sure but I have the feeling HDMI design does not count with separation in general, unlike for example Ethernet which has those separation transformers. And for obvious reasons: HDMI is supposed to be in-home short-range so nothing like that should happen. Ethernet is long and outside cabling system, HV may be induced there from atmoshperic distortion. Just lake coaxial from antenna or satelite dish!

            As such, HDMI counts with nothing like that ever getting into data board, pretty much like USB. That means in this case the STB tuner and the power supply itself should have been properly insulated. You say the PSU is as it is wall, double-insulated adapter. But the tuner itself was not properly insulated from the coax cable! So either it msut be *fully* double insulated, or than have earth grounding present. IMO clearly the STB manufacturer screwed this up - and exactly for the reason you said: it is cheap.

            This is clearly the cable providers fault, I would go and demand compensation for the damage. They will no doubt resist; I don't know how that is in Romania, but here you are eligible to get expert opinion while filing RMA and than they have to pay all the costs of RMA, incl. the cost of such opinion. I think such expert will clearly get the same conclusion - induced high-potential voltage appeared somewhere where it should not (data path of HDMI) which has been than further induced into that TV. The problem is clearly on providers side. It does not actually matter if the reason is bad STB, or their lack of grounding their infrastructure when they know thay have PoS for STB. Their fault anyway. Because if their faulty device or equippement does secondary damage to your stuff, it is their responbility to fix it!
            Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts

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