TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

[momaka]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

The two calculators I've used, one linked from hardware secrets and newegg's, suggest I need a psu capable of +/- 425W.

I don't mean to steer the thread too far in another direction, but what are the specs of the system you're trying to power? (i.e. CPU make and model, GPU make and model, # of HDDs, and etc.) In my experience, those PSU "calculators" tend to spit out numbers that are quite inflated. The average CPU today is quite efficient and can easily make the whole computer idle around 50W. Even a modern Intel i7 will run off of a decently built 250W from the last decade provided, of course, that there are no high-power graphics cards in the computer and that the PSU has a decent 12V rating (i.e., no less than 14 Amps).

IIRC, this duration is measured in seconds/minutes, yes? Should I double check something with my volt meter? It's not been connected to power for over 24 hours now and I'll likely not clean it until Friday/Saturday.

For this particular PSU (and most older non-PFC PSUs), pretty much as soon as the voltage on 5VSB falls, the PSU main caps should be discharged (so more or less just a few seconds). Yes, you can double-check with a multimeter - just measure the DC voltage across the (+) and (-) legs of the bridge rectifier. Not really needed for old PSUs like this, but it will probably give you peace of mind .

Grateful for all you've elaborated on, Momaka!

No problem again

[woodscroller]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

I don't mean to steer the thread too far in another direction

Steer away, my friend. Willing to take all advice/wisdom from seasoned people like yourself... any time!

... but what are the specs of the system you're trying to power? In my experience, those PSU "calculators" tend to spit out numbers that are quite inflated. The average CPU today is quite efficient and can easily make the whole computer idle around 50W. Even a modern Intel i7 will run off of a decently built 250W from the last decade provided, of course, that there are no high-power graphics cards in the computer and that the PSU has a decent 12V rating (i.e., no less than 14 Amps).

The original system specs are:

Thermaltake TR2-430NP
Gigabyte GA-M61P-S3
Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Windsor
EVGA GeForce 8600 GTS 512MB PCIe x16
OCZ DDR2 1066 4GB Kit (2x2GB)
2x 250GB Seagate HDD
1x 500GB Seagate HDD
1x Liteon 22x DVD RW

Will likely test the original motherboad when the new PSU comes in but it'll be replaced until I'm ready to recap it. The replacement board is a A785GM-LE 785G AM3 R. So, the new specs will be:

A785GM-LE/128M
Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Windsor
EVGA GeForce 8600 GTS 512MB PCIe x16
OCZ DDR2 1066 4GB Kit (2x2GB)
2x 250GB Seagate HDD
1x 500GB Seagate HDD
1x Liteon 22x DVD RW

Didn't really doubt the numbers given from the calculators since the specs of my video card suggest a 400W psu. If it's right in my reading that the number spec'ed by a GPU manufacturer is the number for the entire system... not just the video card itself. Still, glad that you're conscious enough to double check.

but it will probably give you peace of mind .

That it will...

[kaboom]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

edited - Just read through that thread again (using CTRL+F 'power supply') and see Topcat repeat what you said about not damaging the transformer as long as you dry it out well. I'll be certain to do just that! Thanks man.

Caps won't be charged then, any residual charge was likely gone within an hour. Some supplies stop working when those caps discharge to 40-80v, in order to shut down at low input voltage. Too-low an input voltage and the PWM, two if you've got APFC, increase duty cycle/current vs reduced voltage, to maintain output.

"Modern" SMPS transformers, with phenolic formers and polyester tape are far more tolerant of getting wet than the old paper insulated types. If they're vacuum varnished, that's even better. The old paper ones usually were wax dipped, but as a rule, those get removed before washing.

I had a filthy old tube-type TV that had been sitting in a damp basement. Blowing off the board really wouldn't have done much, so I washed it. In the same way as described in the "smoker" thread, except I removed the vertical and audio output, as well as flyback, transformers. It turned out fine after some caps.

INDEED! Thanks for the details, Kaboom!

You're welcome,
-Paul

[momaka]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

Didn't really doubt the numbers given from the calculators since the specs of my video card suggest a 400W psu. If it's right in my reading that the number spec'ed by a GPU manufacturer is the number for the entire system... not just the video card itself.

Those numbers are a little inflated as well, but not as badly. Not sure why, but probably so that manufacturers can be on the safe side by not telling a customer to get a PSU that is too low of a wattage.

In reality, however, when you're picking a new PSU for a computer, all you really need to care about is the 12V rail output. Pretty much just about any modern computer nowadays (anything newer than a Pentium 3 and Athlon XP) draws most of its power from the 12V rail. Same applies for GPUs as well. So all you really need to do is add up the TDP (thermal design power) of the CPU(s) and the GPU(s) in your computer and then add a little bit of headroom for the hard drives and inefficiency.

According to CPU-world, your CPU has a TDP of 89W. Google results suggest your GPU (8600 GTS) is rated for 71W TDP. So that's 160W for the CPU and the GPU. Add about 20% for inefficiency in the VRMs of those... and you get about 192W. Now add 3 hard drives - they use the most power when they spin up - usually 2 to 3 amps. Say we give them 3A... that's 3 times 3A times 12V... 108W. (once he HDDs are done spinning up, though, this number will fall down a lot)... 192W + 108W = 300W, or about 25 Amps from the 12V rail. Now the rest of the PSU... unless your motherboard has some exotic chipset that uses more than 40W of power, a 50W combined rating for the 3.3V and 5V rail (i.e. RAM, the motherboard's chipsets, and HDDs) will be more than enough...
In terms of wattage, you have 300 + 50 = 350W total for the whole PSU. So a 350W PSU will do, provided that it is rated for 25A on the 12V rail. Beware, however, that cheap PSUs often lie about the ratings on their label. Something like the Seasonic you picked is a nice solid PSU.

[woodscroller]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

Those numbers are a little inflated as well, but not as badly. Not sure why, but probably so that manufacturers can be on the safe side by not telling a customer to get a PSU that is too low of a wattage.

It's a CYA thing, no doubt. Too, it could also be to keep the system more efficient [think: green]?

In reality, however, when you're picking a new PSU for a computer, all you really need to care about is the 12V rail output. Pretty much just about any modern computer nowadays (anything newer than a Pentium 3 and Athlon XP) draws most of its power from the 12V rail. Same applies for GPUs as well. So all you really need to do is add up the TDP (thermal design power) of the CPU(s) and the GPU(s) in your computer and then add a little bit of headroom for the hard drives and inefficiency.

According to CPU-world, your CPU has a TDP of 89W. Google results suggest your GPU (8600 GTS) is rated for 71W TDP. So that's 160W for the CPU and the GPU. Add about 20% for inefficiency in the VRMs of those... and you get about 192W. Now add 3 hard drives - they use the most power when they spin up - usually 2 to 3 amps. Say we give them 3A... that's 3 times 3A times 12V... 108W. (once he HDDs are done spinning up, though, this number will fall down a lot)... 192W + 108W = 300W, or about 25 Amps from the 12V rail. Now the rest of the PSU... unless your motherboard has some exotic chipset that uses more than 40W of power, a 50W combined rating for the 3.3V and 5V rail (i.e. RAM, the motherboard's chipsets, and HDDs) will be more than enough...
In terms of wattage, you have 300 + 50 = 350W total for the whole PSU. So a 350W PSU will do, provided that it is rated for 25A on the 12V rail. Beware, however, that cheap PSUs often lie about the ratings on their label.

Some things learnt in the last few days of scouring the web are:

1- Make sure the PSU provides more power on the +12V rail, than on the +3.3v and/or +5V rails.

2- Ideally, buy a PSU that delivers more (actual) power than your system requires. Not rated power but, real world, tested power. see #3. [1]

3- A PSU's efficency is not optimal at full power but somewhere between 30-60% of it's rated power. Similar to horsepower/torque. My OBS Power Stroke's peak torque is +/- 1900 RPM but, she'll do 3000 RPM or more, if you need to click off the miles in a hurry. [2]

Something like the Seasonic you picked is a nice solid PSU.

Have seen several people here suggest them. While I've also read of the occasional bad cap story, it's the nature of electronics, it seems. This time though, picking a PSU, I followed advice and paid attention to professional reviewers.

Now, it's time to practice on some scrap PCB's, removing caps... with a 25W pencil tip soldering iron. May have to pick up a chisel tip but we'll see how we get along, making do with what's on hand.



[1] It's better to have it and not need it than the opposite.

[2] This is the reason that I knowingly over-bought on power and also why I didn't buy a 600W or higher unit. The most taxing things my sytem do are; reboot/power on, play videos and the occasional encoding task. Oh, it also has to put up with the occasional I-D-10-T error!

[woodscroller]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

Well, spent some time practicing removing caps. Didn't do so well at first but the second round was better after letting the cheapo radioshack iron heat up >10 minutes. Tomorrow, I'll attempt putting some of the removed caps back... for practice sake. Did look around for a soldering station and found a Weller WLC100 may be a viable option... any thoughts on it?

On the PSU itself though, how the heck does one get the PCB out of the case? The wires that are soldered to the switch and plug recpetacle. It looks like the easiest route would be desolder the two wires soldered to the PCB itself (brown and blue wires). That'd elimate the possiblity of more errors soldering all the connections back to the switch and plug receptacle.

[shovenose]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

Well, spent some time practicing removing caps. Didn't do so well at first but the second round was better after letting the cheapo radioshack iron heat up >10 minutes. Tomorrow, I'll attempt putting some of the removed caps back... for practice sake. Did look around for a soldering station and found a Weller WLC100 may be a viable option... any thoughts on it?

On the PSU itself though, how the heck does one get the PCB out of the case? The wires that are soldered to the switch and plug recpetacle. It looks like the easiest route would be desolder the two wires soldered to the PCB itself (brown and blue wires). That'd elimate the possiblity of more errors soldering all the connections back to the switch and plug receptacle.

I never bother removing the PCB from the casing entirely usually there is enough slack in the cables to work with the metal case hanging around

[woodscroller]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

I never bother removing the PCB from the casing entirely usually there is enough slack in the cables to work with the metal case hanging around

Under normal conditions, that'd work. But, this thing is in serious need of a clean up. Being a smoker and all. Pics a little blurry from my old digi-cam but should show how bad it is.

[LDSisHere]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

If I am going to work on a supply the first thing I do is get it completely out of the case. Just desolder the wires from the bottom of the PCB. It will be much less frustrating to work on without fighting with the case every time you move it.

[woodscroller]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

...Just desolder the wires from the bottom of the PCB...

Thanks for confirmation

[woodscroller]

Re: TR2-430NP Problem or normal?

To update, my Seasonic came in today and I'm just now getting my old beloved system back up and running.

Soon, I'll update this thread with the caps from the old PSU and work on getting it back online!

Thanks for all the help so far, folks!