I replaced one Xbox 360 16v 1500uF Cap with 25v 2200uF what issues will it cause?

[Rotsinger]

So the 16v 1500uF capacitor C9B1 near the power connector on the back of a Phat started leaking. Haven't been able to find the right cap, so I replaced it with a larger 25v 2200uF capacitor a couple weeks ago and everything is working fine since then. I didn't replace the other six 16v caps, they were all good.

When putting the fan plastic cover back I remember there were maybe 2-3 mm of clearance on top of it and 1-2 mm of clearance to the side of it.
For those that don't remember what the fan cover looks like I found this picture https://cdn.quade.co/wp-content/uplo...327_182209.jpg
As you can see on the top right there is a piece of plastic that is going over a capacitor, that is a picture of a original capacitor, the one I replaced it with is slightly bigger.

After running the console and turning it off, there wasn't any overheating issue and the cap was cool to the touch. What risk am I running if in a couple of years the cap starts leaking and makes contact with the plastic fan cover. Also what risk am I running using a larger uF capacitor? I know using more voltage is safe but not sure of uF.

[MarkMaz]

Re: I replaced one Xbox 360 16v 1500uF Cap with 25v 2200uF what issues will it cause?

I actually would like to know this as well as I have the same caps.

[sam_sam_sam]

Re: I replaced one Xbox 360 16v 1500uF Cap with 25v 2200uF what issues will it cause?

One thing to remember is that you can not go down with the voltage rating unless you how the circuit is designed for the device or you know what voltage would be across the capacitor in question

You can always go higher in voltage but be careful with the ESR value to not go to low some circuits can have issues with this and not work correctly

[momaka]

Re: I replaced one Xbox 360 16v 1500uF Cap with 25v 2200uF what issues will it cause?

In regards to the Xbox 360 motherboards... the capacitance isn't that critical for the 16V 1500 uF caps nor the 6.3V caps.

YES, a 2200 uF cap should** work.

** I say should, because Xbox 360 motherboards require either ultra-low ESR electrolytic capacitors or polymer capacitors. If you're not using one of those... well, I guess it doesn't matter too much , since the Xbox 360 has such piss-poor cooling, that the GPU is more likely to die before the replacement cap(s) do, even if the replacement caps are of crap quality and/or not the right type (ultra-low ESR.) So as a side note, if anyone still cares to extend the life of their Xbox 360, consider buying a 2nd CPU heatsink for your Xbox 360, and then replace the undersized GPU heatsink with the CPU heatsink you bought. Of course, if you do that, the CD/DVD drive will no longer fit in the Xbox 360 case... so this is probably better-suited towards modded Xbox 360's that have mod chips to run games off the HDD... or if you don't mind uglier looks, just relocate the optical drive outside of the case.

Now back to the discussion of the 16V 1500 uF caps in the Xbox 360 console...

Microsoft (or rather HannStar - the PCB manufacturer that made most of these boards for MS) used several different Japanese brands of capacitors on these boards. In particular, the 16V, 1500 uF caps were always one of the following:
1) Nichicon (HN series)
2) Rubycon (MCZ series)
3) Panasonic/Matsushita (FL series)
4) United Chemicon (KZJ series)
5) Sanyo (WF series)

From the above, the last one - Sanyo WF - are now known to be problematic series. Basically, if your caps look like this, chances are most are going to go bad or have already gone bad (but may not be showing it yet.) While Sanyo (now Suncon) is actually a reputable manufacturer that makes good quality caps, their WF series are unfortunately unstable in the long run. So if you have these, consider replacing all of them. Fortunately, Sanyo WF caps weren't used very often in the Xbox 360. From what I've seen, they only came in really early non-HDMI models... I think the 1st gens only. But for anyone that has these - probably best to replace them if one or more has gone bad (and even if they haven't.)

The other one that is also known to have some issues, but I wouldn't say it should be of major concern, is United Chemicon KZJ series. The 16V 1500 uF United Chemicon KZJ in the Xbox 360 actually rarely give problems. But since KZJ is closely-related to KZG, I suspect they are most likely to fail when the console hasn't been used over a very long time (a year or more) or if used only very infrequently (handful of times per year, and not for long.) But again, fortunately HannStar didn't use Chemicon KZJ too often either. The most-commonly used caps were Nichicon HN and Rubycon MCZ, along with Panasonic FL almost as often. None of these are known to have issues. (Now, in regards to the 6.3V caps used in the Xbox 360... that's a different story. There, the big 6.3V 2700 uF Rubycon MFZ series and 6.3V 2200 uF Nichicon HZ with date code starting with H05xx can be problematic too - especially if the console is not used frequently. I detailed some of these failures in the same thread that I linked to above for the Sanyo WF caps. Just view the entire thread instead of just the single post I linked to.)

However, if someone does need to replace any 16V 1500 uF capacitors in the Xbox 360 console: the correct replacement caps should be rated for at least 2700 mA of ripple current and 10-12 mOhms or lower impedance/ESR (@ 100 KHz). The thing is, ultra-low ESR electrolytic capacitors are no longer manufactured. So the best route would be to use 470 to 1000 uF solid or functional polymers... again, rated for 16V (or 25V). In a pinch, something like Panasonic FM, FR, and FS will do... or equivalently Nichicon HW, United Chemicon KZH, and Rubycon ZLH/ZLS/ZLQ.

[MarkMaz]

Re: I replaced one Xbox 360 16v 1500uF Cap with 25v 2200uF what issues will it cause?

In regards to the Xbox 360 motherboards... the capacitance isn't that critical for the 16V 1500 uF caps nor the 6.3V caps.

YES, a 2200 uF cap should** work.

** I say should, because Xbox 360 motherboards require either ultra-low ESR electrolytic capacitors or polymer capacitors. If you're not using one of those... well, I guess it doesn't matter too much , since the Xbox 360 has such piss-poor cooling, that the GPU is more likely to die before the replacement cap(s) do, even if the replacement caps are of crap quality and/or not the right type (ultra-low ESR.) So as a side note, if anyone still cares to extend the life of their Xbox 360, consider buying a 2nd CPU heatsink for your Xbox 360, and then replace the undersized GPU heatsink with the CPU heatsink you bought. Of course, if you do that, the CD/DVD drive will no longer fit in the Xbox 360 case... so this is probably better-suited towards modded Xbox 360's that have mod chips to run games off the HDD... or if you don't mind uglier looks, just relocate the optical drive outside of the case.

Now back to the discussion of the 16V 1500 uF caps in the Xbox 360 console...

Microsoft (or rather HannStar - the PCB manufacturer that made most of these boards for MS) used several different Japanese brands of capacitors on these boards. In particular, the 16V, 1500 uF caps were always one of the following:
1) Nichicon (HN series)
2) Rubycon (MCZ series)
3) Panasonic/Matsushita (FL series)
4) United Chemicon (KZJ series)
5) Sanyo (WF series)

From the above, the last one - Sanyo WF - are now known to be problematic series. Basically, if your caps look like this, chances are most are going to go bad or have already gone bad (but may not be showing it yet.) While Sanyo (now Suncon) is actually a reputable manufacturer that makes good quality caps, their WF series are unfortunately unstable in the long run. So if you have these, consider replacing all of them. Fortunately, Sanyo WF caps weren't used very often in the Xbox 360. From what I've seen, they only came in really early non-HDMI models... I think the 1st gens only. But for anyone that has these - probably best to replace them if one or more has gone bad (and even if they haven't.)

The other one that is also known to have some issues, but I wouldn't say it should be of major concern, is United Chemicon KZJ series. The 16V 1500 uF United Chemicon KZJ in the Xbox 360 actually rarely give problems. But since KZJ is closely-related to KZG, I suspect they are most likely to fail when the console hasn't been used over a very long time (a year or more) or if used only very infrequently (handful of times per year, and not for long.) But again, fortunately HannStar didn't use Chemicon KZJ too often either. The most-commonly used caps were Nichicon HN and Rubycon MCZ, along with Panasonic FL almost as often. None of these are known to have issues. (Now, in regards to the 6.3V caps used in the Xbox 360... that's a different story. There, the big 6.3V 2700 uF Rubycon MFZ series and 6.3V 2200 uF Nichicon HZ with date code starting with H05xx can be problematic too - especially if the console is not used frequently. I detailed some of these failures in the same thread that I linked to above for the Sanyo WF caps. Just view the entire thread instead of just the single post I linked to.)

However, if someone does need to replace any 16V 1500 uF capacitors in the Xbox 360 console: the correct replacement caps should be rated for at least 2700 mA of ripple current and 10-12 mOhms or lower impedance/ESR (@ 100 KHz). The thing is, ultra-low ESR electrolytic capacitors are no longer manufactured. So the best route would be to use 470 to 1000 uF solid or functional polymers... again, rated for 16V (or 25V). In a pinch, something like Panasonic FM, FR, and FS will do... or equivalently Nichicon HW, United Chemicon KZH, and Rubycon ZLH/ZLS/ZLQ.

Sadly the WF caps are also used in the supposedly "GOOD" Jasper Motherboards that aren't supposed to RROD.

In this post in another topic: https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...68&postcount=3

You mentioned that the first Cap of 16V 1500 UF at the top right near the power connector is a filtering capacitor. What could be the cause of that cap going bad? Can it be a bad power supply? If I were to replace like OP with 25v 2200uF I am guessing as long as the cap is good at filtering the ripples it won't have to much of an effect on the rest of the console because all power goes through it and then it gets passed on to the remaining 16V caps before power goes to the GPU and CPU. Is that correct?

[momaka]

Re: I replaced one Xbox 360 16v 1500uF Cap with 25v 2200uF what issues will it cause?

You mentioned that the first Cap of 16V 1500 UF at the top right near the power connector is a filtering capacitor. What could be the cause of that cap going bad? Can it be a bad power supply?

Could be bad PSU. Could be too much heat from the console. Could be failing if someone did a reflow/reball on the console before this... or the towel "trick" ... which I guess falls into the category of overheating. It could also be failed because it was one of the affected cap brands and series - i.e. Sanyo WF or United Chemicon KZJ. These two don't really need a reason to fail. They just do (well Sanyo WF does for sure, but Chemicon KZJ is Russian roulette - sometimes they can go bad, sometimes they won't.)
Now, if the failed cap is Nichicon HN or Rubycon MCZ, the console definitely must have overheated before. Ruby MCZ is sensitive to elevated heat and will eventually fail if abused enough. Nichicon HN are the toughest on these consoles, IME... but can still be killed with too much heat. And Panny FL are also as tough... but every once in a blue moon (as in, extremely extremely rarely), they might have a random failure not related to any of the above causes.

If I were to replace like OP with 25v 2200uF I am guessing as long as the cap is good at filtering the ripples it won't have to much of an effect on the rest of the console because all power goes through it and then it gets passed on to the remaining 16V caps before power goes to the GPU and CPU. Is that correct?

Depends on the 25V 2200 uF cap you use - if it's rated to have low impedance/ESR and high RC, it should be OK. If not, it may fail again. I'm not entirely sure how much stress that cap sees. It shouldn't be a lot, I think. However, given it's close to both the GPU and CPU VRMs, it probably gets hot, if nothing else. So a cap capable of handing the abuse from heat, as well as moderate RC would be more desirable. So generally speaking, even though all of the power for the board passes by that cap first, it may not be under too much electrical stress, because the PI inductors separating the CPU, GPU, 5V_aux, and RAM V_dd VRMs should be keeping the noise and RC fairly low for it. The primary function of that cap is to really just filter any induced noise that might come from the PSU's cable between the console and the PSU, as well as filter whatever remaining noise the console could be generating from its circuits from going back to the PSU (and it's cable, resulting in EMI/RFI.) So really, it mostly needs to handle heat well, due to its positioning... and moderate RC, due to being close all VRMs (though isolated from them) and due to any remaining noise that may come from the PSU.

Sadly the WF caps are also used in the supposedly "GOOD" Jasper Motherboards that aren't supposed to RROD.

I don't know about the statement highlighted above. All Xbox 360's will sooner or later meet the same fate with their under-engineered GPU heatsink. There's no two ways about it. On some, it will just happen a little later than others, simply due to manufacturing tolerances and some GPU's just being better bins.

[Acrof]

Microsoft (or rather HannStar - the PCB manufacturer that made most of these boards for MS) used several different Japanese brands of capacitors on these boards. In particular, the 16V, 1500 uF caps were always one of the following:
1) Nichicon (HN series)
2) Rubycon (MCZ series)
3) Panasonic/Matsushita (FL series)
4) United Chemicon (KZJ series)
5) Sanyo (WF series)

From the above, the last one - Sanyo WF - are now known to be problematic series. Basically, if your caps look like this, chances are most are going to go bad or have already gone bad (but may not be showing it yet.) While Sanyo (now Suncon) is actually a reputable manufacturer that makes good quality caps, their WF series are unfortunately unstable in the long run. So if you have these, consider replacing all of them. Fortunately, Sanyo WF caps weren't used very often in the Xbox 360. From what I've seen, they only came in really early non-HDMI models... I think the 1st gens only. But for anyone that has these - probably best to replace them if one or more has gone bad (and even if they haven't.)

The other one that is also known to have some issues, but I wouldn't say it should be of major concern, is United Chemicon KZJ series. The 16V 1500 uF United Chemicon KZJ in the Xbox 360 actually rarely give problems. But since KZJ is closely-related to KZG, I suspect they are most likely to fail when the console hasn't been used over a very long time (a year or more) or if used only very infrequently (handful of times per year, and not for long.) But again, fortunately HannStar didn't use Chemicon KZJ too often either. The most-commonly used caps were Nichicon HN and Rubycon MCZ, along with Panasonic FL almost as often. None of these are known to have issues. (Now, in regards to the 6.3V caps used in the Xbox 360... that's a different story. There, the big 6.3V 2700 uF Rubycon MFZ series and 6.3V 2200 uF Nichicon HZ with date code starting with H05xx can be problematic too - especially if the console is not used frequently. I detailed some of these failures in the same thread that I linked to above for the Sanyo WF caps. Just view the entire thread instead of just the single post I linked to.)

However, if someone does need to replace any 16V 1500 uF capacitors in the Xbox 360 console: the correct replacement caps should be rated for at least 2700 mA of ripple current and 10-12 mOhms or lower impedance/ESR (@ 100 KHz). The thing is, ultra-low ESR electrolytic capacitors are no longer manufactured. So the best route would be to use 470 to 1000 uF solid or functional polymers... again, rated for 16V (or 25V). In a pinch, something like Panasonic FM, FR, and FS will do... or equivalently Nichicon HW, United Chemicon KZH, and Rubycon ZLH/ZLS/ZLQ.

Greeeeat, my Jasper has the Sanyo WF caps.... So far only one cap is bulging, closer to the power supply.
I replaced it with the first cap I came across that had the same ratings. Didn't know it needed to be ultra-low ESR. 😅

I don't know about the statement highlighted above. All Xbox 360's will sooner or later meet the same fate with their under-engineered GPU heatsink. There's no two ways about it. On some, it will just happen a little later than others, simply due to manufacturing tolerances and some GPU's just being better bins.

Well, I decided to replace the crap GPU heatsink in mine with the slightly better heatsink with heatpipe, also gonna install a 40mm Noctua (NF-A4X20) in the fins that come out of the heatpipe, gonna draw 12V from the DVD so it spins at max speed all the time, it whisper quiet even at max rpm, so it's better to let it work at it's max capacity.
Taking it apart to install the new heatsink is the reason I found the bulging cap BTW. haha

[Acrof]

Just an update:
The random cap seems to be working fine so far.

About the heatsinks, I replaced the original extruded aluminium, with the fancier heatsinks with heatpipe from previous models. Also added a Noctua fan.

Took power from the DVD drive's cable, so it runs at 12V all the time. I also installed thermalpads under the GPU heatsink for the RAM, and mini adhesive heatsinks for the other 2 (not show in this picture, but I have separate pictures if anyone is interested).
I used MX4 thermal paste, an set the original fan of the 360 to run at 44%.

Since I bought a 20mm thick fan, it interfered with the upper metal cage.
You have two options here: remove it completely, or cut a 45x45mm hole in the cage, so that the fan can go through.
If you don't want to modify the console, use a fan with 10-15mm max thickness.
I decided to cut a hole:



Anyways, these are the results:


The CPU kinda remained the same as before, around the 60°C mark, so I can't really recommend replacing the CPU heatsink.***
The GPU and RAM, however... Just WOW.
The average temperature before was 71°C, reaching up to 74°C while running heavy games.
With the new heatsink + fan, it never went past 54.5°C, a 20° difference is just INSANE. My jasper isn't any louder than any other console in my collection now.
Similar noise level of my PS3 slim.

***: The CPU heatsink with heatpipe has very, very restrictive airflow when compared to the extruded aluminum one, there's a possibility this restriction in the CPU forces more air to go through the GPU instead.
It's possible that combining the heatpipe GPU heatsink with the basic CPU heatsink will result in worse GPU temps. I haven't tested it, but it makes sense.
Since the cpu temperature didn't go up, I guess it won't hurt to change both heatsinks.
Using tape or cardboard to close the gap between the fan shroud and CPU heatsink could improve things a bit, another possibility is using better thermal interface, since this CPU heatsink has a copper base, even liquid metal is a possibility (extremely risky though).
Then again, 60°C is a comfortable temperature for a CPU, and making it cooler than that won't improve longevity or noise whatsoever.