Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

[cathoderay]

Bear with me as this is getting interesting.
Not a lot as the saying goes but it may help someone to decide on throwing it in the landfill or rescuing it.
Symptom no go.
*******
WARNING THIS STUFF CAN BE FATAL IF WORKED ON LIVE. PLEASE DO NOT WORK ON THIS LIVE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING
YOU NEED A GOOD VARIAC AND AN ISOLATING TRANSFORMER AND SKILLS. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE DONT TOUCH.
A LOT OF THIS CAN BE FAULT TRACED USING CONTINUITY METER ONLY.USE A 12V CAR BATTERY FOR THE MOTOR TEST WITH AN IN LINE FUSE. 10A.
I'LL RUN THROUGH THE CONTROL BOARD TEST AND TRY VARIOUS THINGS WITHOUT THE MAINS.
FAULT FIND THE TRIAC BOARD USNG A METER AND INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE WEB.
*********************


Top of the unit an intermittent led more of this later.
Disassemble unit and start to inspect.
Remove motor by unplugging connectors and removing triac board and main controller board.
Note triac board has btb16 600BW Triac Snubberless 16A 600v and 36txe01
bi metallic thermostat rated at 16A shut off normally closed 85 degrees c.
Check thermostat....wide open. Check triac short MT1 to MT2.
Measure pins on connector to motor. Blue /Black/Brown
Remove connector and measure between Blue[Neutral and Line Brown] 5.0 ohms....why triac short?
Remove vacuum rotor by removing nut clockwise and pulling off. Note where spacer and washer are located. Unscreww 4 screws AFTER making hacksaw cut to mark position of cover. Pull apart but armature rotor may come with it.
Watch the expander spacer washer under the bearing. Watch the brushes as they pull out. Remove the small plastic plug that holds the capacitor that is across the motor to neutral to suppress EMI. Open the capsule and push out little PCB. Mine had desoldered itself from the board. Resolder and reassemble motor. Check capacitance of cap . I measured around 196 nanos and should be 220n. Good enuff. Check resistance is approx 5 ohms and run motor up without triac attached using 12v power supply. All good then move on if problem not here. Use a car battery with a fuse if no stand alone power supply. I did a video here.
Desolder main pcb from plastic carrier.
At this juncture we have to discuss the circuit and connectivity so will pause here to upload some pictures.
Needless to say mine still does not work as i need to replace the triac and the bi metal switch. i could not find the original protector but found
thermorex-tk24-t02-mg01-o85-s75-bi-metallic-switch-250-v-16-a-opening-temp. I have no idea if i can make this fit but lets see as i might have to mod the pcb. So far Triac few pounds and switch the same.
If you have found dodgy components here then just replace the two items and re-assemble the machine. If not then meet you back here.

So with reference to the interwinding diagram note the power distribution.
The plastic plug interface pins are soldered to the main board which is connected to the triac board and then connect to the motor.

[petehall347]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

dont look good

[stj]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

WARNING THIS STUFF CAN BE FATAL IF WORKED ON LIVE. PLEASE DO NOT WORK ON THIS LIVE UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING
YOU NEED A GOOD VARIAC AND AN ISOLATING TRANSFORMER AND SKILLS. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE DONT TOUCH.

we dont care about such things here.
everybody dies (other than Henry Kissinger) - just at differet times.

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

dont look good

. This is an odd ball resistor that i dont know what it does.

The triac gate is fed by a 75 ohm resistor from pin 13 with a voltage divider of two 10k's that goes to pin 8. Hanging off this is this 390 ohm res which appears connected to the incoming mains and the gate. What is going on here does anyone know? I thought it was the zero cross. There is also a 510K and a cap to pin 9 but the 510k goes to neutral.....is this teh zero cross cant see how.

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

we dont care about such things here.
everybody dies (other than Henry Kissinger) - just at differet times.

Glad to hear it but its a disclaimer on my part. Dont want to be responsible for anyones demise especially Henry Kissinger. Was his Miele faulty as well?
Keep one hand behind your back and hold tight.

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

Here is a spin up video

https://youtu.be/1EUduwC8gzo

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

Thought i would attach a circuit diagram as traced so far.
R1 is a mystery ...Does this hold the gate at 5v normally and the micro pulls it low during the zero cross or some clever phase adjustment.
Anyone got any ideas?
I'll hang a scope on it and see if i get any clues with voltage and current waveforms.

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

i realised i made a mistake with the schematic but i cant delete the old one so here is the new one with an explaining video
The two 10k's on pin 8 go to the triac gate connection and the gate is fed by three pins to get enough sink current

Here is the video link

https://youtu.be/Vd6U4mv8Rhw

[redwire]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

I missed it - what was wrong with the Miele vacuum cleaner speed control board? The schematic is nice work.
R1 is across triac gate-MT1 and just keeps it off, lowers its sensitivity with high dV/dt. The MCU runs off 0V and -5V rails usually, as you need -5V to turn on the triac in both quadrants. It is confusing. So the MCU common is the -5V rail. Zero-cross detect looks like pin 9. I think pin 6 is measuring back-EMF for speed control somehow, or detecting when the triac turns off.
Did not see the Miele part number for the board anywhere. I can imagine the triac gets pretty hot at partial speeds.

I believe animals especially dogs can hear the ultrasonics a vacuum cleaner or hair dryer makes (airflow), this is why they usually freak out when near them.

[keeney123]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

i realised i made a mistake with the schematic but i cant delete the old one so here is the new one with an explaining video
The two 10k's on pin 8 go to the triac gate connection and the gate is fed by three pins to get enough sink current

Here is the video link

https://youtu.be/Vd6U4mv8Rhw

Looking at your schematic it looks like R3 and R1 is a voltage divider. R1 seems to be the on current feed for the triac. The coil of the motor is preventing the triac's M1 M2 connection from driving current to quickly when first conducting. R5 and R7 seem to be another voltage divider that is monitoring the voltage at the gate junction which ultimately controls the on and off state timing of the rise and fall of the current of the gate. When monitoring the Voltage at the Gate the R5 and R7 voltage divider also monitors the rise of the off state voltage so that the triac will not latch up. This is my understanding. The reference I used was my knowledge of SCR and this site.
https://electricalacademia.com/elect...%20items...%20

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

I missed it - what was wrong with the Miele vacuum cleaner speed control board? The schematic is nice work.
R1 is across triac gate-MT1 and just keeps it off, lowers its sensitivity with high dV/dt. The MCU runs off 0V and -5V rails usually, as you need -5V to turn on the triac in both quadrants. It is confusing. So the MCU common is the -5V rail. Zero-cross detect looks like pin 9. I think pin 6 is measuring back-EMF for speed control somehow, or detecting when the triac turns off.
Did not see the Miele part number for the board anywhere. I can imagine the triac gets pretty hot at partial speeds.

I believe animals especially dogs can hear the ultrasonics a vacuum cleaner or hair dryer makes (airflow), this is why they usually freak out when near them.

Thank you as the main issue was the triac board and the little cap that lives in the motor itself. The suppression cap in that board had unsoldered itself and the thermostatic switch had gone open circuit on the triac board.On the main controller board R1 had snapped in half.
Thank you for your comments/ The micro is fed with plus 5V not minus as the supply for the micro is negative to the AC input and below it..... referenced to MT1. Being negative to the AC input means the triac fires on quadrant 1 and 3 with gate pulses always negative....i think. I fed a sine wave on pin 9 and the pulses coming out of pin 13/14/15 are locked to it so seems reasonable. R5 and R7 seem to be sniffing the gate voltage but jury is out as to why.R1 looks like its keeping the gate off as you commented and the three ports ground the gate pin to zero v dc supply. Of course ground is not ground in respect of the ac input but is in respect to MT1.
Miele part number on the board is E107713 EDW712 MANU NUM 5754930
The micro is an ST62T0062 WHICH IS A CUSTOM OTP Device

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

Looking at your schematic it looks like R3 and R1 is a voltage divider. R1 seems to be the on current feed for the triac. The coil of the motor is preventing the triac's M1 M2 connection from driving current to quickly when first conducting. R5 and R7 seem to be another voltage divider that is monitoring the voltage at the gate junction which ultimately controls the on and off state timing of the rise and fall of the current of the gate. When monitoring the Voltage at the Gate the R5 and R7 voltage divider also monitors the rise of the off state voltage so that the triac will not latch up. This is my understanding. The reference I used was my knowledge of SCR and this site.
https://electricalacademia.com/elect...%20items...%20

Thank you for your comments
R1 is not the current feed as it would be the 75 ohm R3 pulled low by the micro by three pins. The micro is unable to sink more than 20mA with one pin.3 gives 60mA which is fine.Not sure why you would want to monitor what you are driving on another 3 pins but maybe is trying to use the back emf when its off to calculate current point for switch on to guarantee latching whe ncurrent is flowing in triac. i dont know i'm guessing need someone to comment who wrote the code. Thing is i cant find another circuit the same as this with documented code listing....that would help.
Need to look at the voltages on the pins with 240v applied. Coming soon.

[keeney123]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

Looking at your schematic it looks like R3 and R1 is a voltage divider. R1 seems to be the on current feed for the triac. The coil of the motor is preventing the triac's M1 M2 connection from driving current to quickly when first conducting. R5 and R7 seem to be another voltage divider that is monitoring the voltage at the gate junction which ultimately controls the on and off state timing of the rise and fall of the current of the gate. When monitoring the Voltage at the Gate the R5 and R7 voltage divider also monitors the rise of the off state voltage so that the triac will not latch up. This is my understanding. The reference I used was my knowledge of SCR and this site.
https://electricalacademia.com/elect...%20items...%20

What happens to R1 when the traic conducts all the current will go through the traic M1,M2. The gate will see no high current. The 390 ohms compared to a conducting traic is quite high resistance. When the traic conducts about 2 AC RMS volts will be dropped across it. Also, the path to ground will be through the two 10K ohm resistors. The other resistor R3 which is 75 ohms adjust how quickly the traic conducts. Still it is the current flow through the R1 resistor that will be divided between the gate and the other connected resistors to determine when the triac conducts and how long. Initially, with the thermostatic switch closed the current will conduct through R1 into the gate and down through the motor. That is the gate circuit. The winding of the motor will impede the gate current. This can be figured out mathematically with the inductance of the coil of the motor and its resistance at a given frequency. Once the gate current gets large enough it will make the triac conduct provided that the voltage difference between M1 and M2 is large enough to hold a current flow through them. Once the triac reaches it's latching voltage it will continue to conduct until it falls below that voltage, provided that the current going to the gate is not high enough to make it conduct again. U1 is kind of a black box. We do know we have an oscillator that works with the speed control circuit which adjust the speed of the motor by the amount of conduction of the traic with an AC waveform latching voltage and the gate current.
Looking future back in the circuit I notice we have a parallel circuit to motor and triac. The parallel circuit consist of C1 and D3 and R6 and C4. Within this parallel circuit we have a C1 and D3 parallel to Z2 a zener diode. A zener diode conducts one way as a diode and in reverse bias as a voltage clamp.
Do you have the data sheet for U1?

Yes, I know it is a DC motor. My retained knowledge is limited when it comes the component with-in a motor. I know there are brushes commutator in a DC motor. AC motors have slip rings. The actual way the winding are aligned I do not remember. I know there are many different ways of making a DC motor or a AC motor. Anyway, there is no more DC except for batteries. Everything else is either pulsating DC or AC.

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

What happens to R1 when the traic conducts all the current will go through the traic M1,M2. The gate will see no high current. The 390 ohms compared to a conducting traic is quite high resistance. When the traic conducts about 2 AC RMS volts will be dropped across it. Also, the path to ground will be through the two 10K ohm resistors. The other resistor R3 which is 75 ohms adjust how quickly the traic conducts. Still it is the current flow through the R1 resistor that will be divided between the gate and the other connected resistors to determine when the triac conducts and how long. Initially, with the thermostatic switch closed the current will conduct through R1 into the gate and down through the motor. That is the gate circuit. The winding of the motor will impede the gate current. This can be figured out mathematically with the inductance of the coil of the motor and its resistance at a given frequency. Once the gate current gets large enough it will make the triac conduct provided that the voltage difference between M1 and M2 is large enough to hold a current flow through them. Once the triac reaches it's latching voltage it will continue to conduct until it falls below that voltage, provided that the current going to the gate is not high enough to make it conduct again. U1 is kind of a black box. We do know we have an oscillator that works with the speed control circuit which adjust the speed of the motor by the amount of conduction of the traic with an AC waveform latching voltage and the gate current.
Looking future back in the circuit I notice we have a parallel circuit to motor and triac. The parallel circuit consist of C1 and D3 and R6 and C4. Within this parallel circuit we have a C1 and D3 parallel to Z2 a zener diode. A zener diode conducts one way as a diode and in reverse bias as a voltage clamp.
Do you have the data sheet for U1?

Yes, I know it is a DC motor. My retained knowledge is limited when it comes the component with-in a motor. I know there are brushes commutator in a DC motor. AC motors have slip rings. The actual way the winding are aligned I do not remember. I know there are many different ways of making a DC motor or a AC motor. Anyway, there is no more DC except for batteries. Everything else is either pulsating DC or AC.

Thank you for your hypothesis.
Couple of notes . The thermostatic switch is in the path to the Triac MT1 . It should always be closed unless the outside temp of the device is higher than 85 degrees. Its a safety switch. Gate current is largely dependent on R3 which is being drained by the micro pins or switched on. Current is coming out of the gate in a conventional sense and therefore swiching in quadrants 1 and 3 i believe .
There will be a drop across the triac when conducting but the main current path for the motor is back to mains neutral not via the 10k resistors. R5 and R7 look very much linked to the gate. When the triac is off the two 10k resistors will see 5V. When the gate is pulled low and the triac switches on i fail to see how you can measure motor current.
The gate resistor does not control how long the triac is on, the micro does that which is why its is a speed controller controlled from the voltage on pin 10 the speed pot.
MT! which is connected to the AC mains incoming does not fluctuate in value[other than the ac swing through zero to 1.414x 220V] and due to the zener diode will maintain a steady 5V across R1 i think until the gate is pulled low. I need to look at this to see.
I dont have a micro datasheet as this is a custom one time programmable but i think its very close to the one i have attached.
Thanks for your ideas. What would be ideal is another circuit the same or a description from Miele.

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

Looking future back in the circuit I notice we have a parallel circuit to motor and triac. The parallel circuit consist of C1 and D3 and R6 and C4. Within this parallel circuit we have a C1 and D3 parallel to Z2 a zener diode. A zener diode conducts one way as a diode and in reverse bias as a voltage clamp.

This is a capacitive DC supply with non galvanic isolation.
Note it is a negative version which sits below the max ac of the mains.
It is referenced to MT1 and hence can use it to drive the gate into conduction.
https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...5df14516be.pdf

This is the closest i can find attached

[keeney123]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

Thank you for your hypothesis.
Couple of notes . The thermostatic switch is in the path to the Triac MT1 . It should always be closed unless the outside temp of the device is higher than 85 degrees. Its a safety switch. Gate current is largely dependent on R3 which is being drained by the micro pins or switched on. Current is coming out of the gate in a conventional sense and therefore swiching in quadrants 1 and 3 i believe .
There will be a drop across the triac when conducting but the main current path for the motor is back to mains neutral not via the 10k resistors. R5 and R7 look very much linked to the gate. When the triac is off the two 10k resistors will see 5V. When the gate is pulled low and the triac switches on i fail to see how you can measure motor current.
The gate resistor does not control how long the triac is on, the micro does that which is why its is a speed controller controlled from the voltage on pin 10 the speed pot.
MT! which is connected to the AC mains incoming does not fluctuate in value[other than the ac swing through zero to 1.414x 220V] and due to the zener diode will maintain a steady 5V across R1 i think until the gate is pulled low. I need to look at this to see.
I dont have a micro datasheet as this is a custom one time programmable but i think its very close to the one i have attached.
Thanks for your ideas. What would be ideal is another circuit the same or a description from Miele.

I can see that there is a lack of communication and understand. Let me say a little different. The gate is primally what controls the on and off state of the traic. Without the gate the traic would have to wait on the voltage to get to it's latch although it will start to conduct right before the latch. In this sense the gate will control the speed of the motor.

I did not say the path of the motor current is going through the 10K ohm resistors. My statement was "Also, the path to ground will be through the two 10K ohm resistors." In this statement I was explaining why the gate would not have a lot of current to it. You previously suggested that the gate would see a lot of current if the path of gate current was going through R1. Your ground symbol in this case is the ground of your controller

In your drawing of the circuit there is no voltage specified on the zener diode. I was unable to tell what it's voltage was.

Yes, I understand the purpose the thermostatic switch.

13,14 and pin 15 which you call micropins of this IC what are they connecting to inside the Micro IC?

How does the oscillator speed control circuit connect to the micropins internally in the IC to set up the turn on time for the traic?

You are right when you say that R3 is draining the current to the gate. However, R1 is feeding the gate.

Understand that the traic can conduct in both directions and as the polarity of the AC Volts swings the gate voltage will also, swing.

The motor you showed has 4 brushes instead of 2 brushes. I wonder what the other 2 brushes are for?

If I had more time I would try an understand what the zener and the connection to the Micro control pin 16 is doing. I will leave that to you.

[cathoderay]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

I can see that there is a lack of communication and understand. Let me say a little different. The gate is primally what controls the on and off state of the traic. Without the gate the traic would have to wait on the voltage to get to it's latch although it will start to conduct right before the latch. In this sense the gate will control the speed of the motor.

I did not say the path of the motor current is going through the 10K ohm resistors. My statement was "Also, the path to ground will be through the two 10K ohm resistors." In this statement I was explaining why the gate would not have a lot of current to it. You previously suggested that the gate would see a lot of current if the path of gate current was going through R1. Your ground symbol in this case is the ground of your controller

In your drawing of the circuit there is no voltage specified on the zener diode. I was unable to tell what it's voltage was.

Yes, I understand the purpose the thermostatic switch.

13,14 and pin 15 which you call micropins of this IC what are they connecting to inside the Micro IC?

How does the oscillator speed control circuit connect to the micropins internally in the IC to set up the turn on time for the traic?

You are right when you say that R3 is draining the current to the gate. However, R1 is feeding the gate.

Understand that the traic can conduct in both directions and as the polarity of the AC Volts swings the gate voltage will also, swing.

The motor you showed has 4 brushes instead of 2 brushes. I wonder what the other 2 brushes are for?

If I had more time I would try an understand what the zener and the connection to the Micro control pin 16 is doing. I will leave that to you.

Thankyou so much for your feedback. Much appreciated.
The zener is a standard 5.6V i think as i measure just over 5v when running
This is the supply to the micro.
The motor has two brushes only the only two little tabs are for plugging the capacitor module into which is a supression cap. Goes between MT1 and neutral effectively. The motor is a regular universal motor voltage into one winding then to commutator . Out of commutator to other brush then through winding to neutral. Commutator and brushes all in series as normal.
Pin 16 is the supply to the micro.
Pins 13/14/15 inside the micro are open drains or collectors which can sink 20mA when on or the port pulled logic low if you like.
Oscillator runs at 4 meg. Sequence is:
find zero cross of mains via an interrupt on pin
Load register inside the micro with count
Get value of speed contorl via analogue to digital pin.
Use look up table to decide on on point of triac gate
Send two lots of pulses to make sure the triac latches spaced by a few microseconds. This is because as you know Zero voltage cross is not same as current through motor....inductive it lags.
This is simplistic program example in reality its a little more involved but there are examples out there...see microchip ST et al.

THe gate switch point relative to the zero cross point of the incoming mains controls the speed of the motor in quadrants 1 and 3 of the triac. In each case gate negative. Gate current via the drains or collectors of the micro flows to micro ground via the zener circuit.

Anyway upshot of all this is it needed replacement of the triac and thermostatic switch and the gate biassing resistor 390 ohms.
All back together and working.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

[keeney123]

Re: Miele cat and dog hs05 vacuum power supply

Thankyou so much for your feedback. Much appreciated.
The zener is a standard 5.6V i think as i measure just over 5v when running
This is the supply to the micro.
The motor has two brushes only the only two little tabs are for plugging the capacitor module into which is a supression cap. Goes between MT1 and neutral effectively. The motor is a regular universal motor voltage into one winding then to commutator . Out of commutator to other brush then through winding to neutral. Commutator and brushes all in series as normal.
Pin 16 is the supply to the micro.
Pins 13/14/15 inside the micro are open drains or collectors which can sink 20mA when on or the port pulled logic low if you like.
Oscillator runs at 4 meg. Sequence is:
find zero cross of mains via an interrupt on pin
Load register inside the micro with count
Get value of speed contorl via analogue to digital pin.
Use look up table to decide on on point of triac gate
Send two lots of pulses to make sure the triac latches spaced by a few microseconds. This is because as you know Zero voltage cross is not same as current through motor....inductive it lags.
This is simplistic program example in reality its a little more involved but there are examples out there...see microchip ST et al.

THe gate switch point relative to the zero cross point of the incoming mains controls the speed of the motor in quadrants 1 and 3 of the triac. In each case gate negative. Gate current via the drains or collectors of the micro flows to micro ground via the zener circuit.

Anyway upshot of all this is it needed replacement of the triac and thermostatic switch and the gate biassing resistor 390 ohms.
All back together and working.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

No problem. Seems like you learn a lot about this circuit and your explanation shows it. I am no longer a technician but, I try to help where I can. As I have told others I would rather be drawing an painting. That was my calling ever since 4th grade. My father had other plans for me.