Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

    In general, if I have problems with a product's reliability or have it die prematurely, that's going to make me a lot less likely to patronize the manufacturer again. However, I'm wondering if this might be an exception and just a case of the manufacturer getting shafted by the capacitor manufacturer.


    I bought two flat screen monitors about a year and a half ago. They were a really good deal and have great picture, so I was very happy would them and would have recommended them to anyone or repatronized the manufacture, Sceptre.

    However, about two weeks ago one of them started acting up, shutting off when it shouldn't and not always powering back on right away. After a few days it stopped working completely. Then, within a couple of days the second monitor, the exact same type started showing the same symptoms.

    So after a talk with tech support they told me it sounded like a bad power supply and unfortunately it was just past the warranted. Thus I figured I had nothing to lose and opened it up. What I found was two 25 volt 470 uF caps were bulging and when I tested them with a meter it seemed they were leaking severely. I took them out and soldered in a couple of new capacitors of the same rating. Problem solved: The monitor was as good as new, except for the skuffs where I pried apart the housing (it's snap-together plastic, basically impossible to open without scuffing).

    I would have written this off to being shotty manufacturing on the part of Sceptre and figured that I'd no longer recommend the brand, except for one thing: All other aspects of the construction seemed susprisingly good. I was actually impressed to see that the circuit board was reasonably thick and solid. All the traces for the power supply were also nice and thick, not skimping on copper and the major components were all connected with through-board holes and soldered in solidly.

    You don't see that as much these days. It seems like most manufacturers prefer the surface-mount option, which is fine for small components but for things like big capacitors and inductors, it can easily fail. They often have larger, heavier components held on by a tiny amount of solder. (I've seen caps come off of a video card just because they're barely secured to it).

    Beyond that, the components all looked pretty solid. They had a big bridge rectifier, instead of trying to get away with the smallest, cheapest one that would do, and it had an ample heat sync.

    In light of this, I'm inclined to think that the manufacturer might not be cutting corners but may have just got hosed from their parts supplier on the capacitors.

    Is this a valid conclusion?

    #2
    Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

    Sceptre brand doesn't make them, somebody did for that business.

    With this now aside. Sceptre monitors always had low quality stuff very consistently while other brands like Samsung, etc tend to have more reliable stuff and far fewer issues.

    Just to be aware about brand is not what is appear for quality-wise.

    Just go ahead and get quality caps we recommended here and these monitors should last longer than that intial 1 and half years this time.

    Cheers, Wizard

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

      Hi DrBuzz

      That sounds like a reasonable conclusion to me.

      But....
      You didn't say what brand the caps were.
      That does matter, because if a major manufacturer uses El Cheapo caps in an LCD monitor anytime after 2004-2005, they should have certainly known better by then.
      I would view cheap caps such as Hermei, Fuhjyyu, CY/YC, Elite, etc.. as more of a deliberate act of Planned Obsolescence after the 2004-2005 period.

      Now if some reputable caps failed such as Nichicon or United/Nippon Chemicon, or even somewhat decent ones like Samxon, Capxon or Samwha..
      That might just be a bad batch or more likely, it just got too hot either due to conditions or poor design.

      Oh well....
      At least we of the LCD Bezel removing crowd get an endless supply of free monitors for the forseeable future!

      Have Fun!
      Keri
      The More You Learn The Less You Know!

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

        sceptre/komodo/leo/whatever they call it this week have always been cheap and used shoddy parts.
        this means bad caps and in the past also meant samsung blue label crt's.
        the good news is that these designs were ok other than the bad caps.
        i have a 24"sceptre and there is a 19" at the shop.
        can you guess what was wrong with them?
        and drbuzzo welcome to badcaps forums!
        orange drops are the cap of choice here when restoring vintage gear.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

          Originally posted by KeriJane
          Hi DrBuzz

          That sounds like a reasonable conclusion to me.

          But....
          You didn't say what brand the caps were.
          I didn't know the name or realize it even had a name on it. The capacitor looks very generic, but upon looking at it closely I did see a tiny name. I had to get a magnifying glass to see it.

          On the base there is a tiny inscription that says the brand is CapXon - A crappy brand I have come to understand

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

            Don't assume that it is correct, the fact is this: The maker of the monitor that made for brands like Sceptre and oddballs, acer (yes it's not good either) and much more, even good brands like samung sometimes! Often they specify minimum specs on caps due to beancounters. They don't know too well on the makes of countless capacitors but they care about quanitity per dollar and minimum specs.

            The truth is that too many capacitor makers are not up to quality standards and 1,000 to 2,000 hours at 85C or 105C does not help very well with life.

            There are only few brands of good capacitors aside from occasional whoops.
            Even the good ones do have general purpose and medium specs caps chosen and used instead of using good caps where it is needed.

            Even our electronic supplier for our TV shop is guilty of this selling us 105C but they are yublight general purpose caps. :P

            Cheers, Wizard
            Last edited by Wizard; 01-17-2009, 01:41 PM.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

              Regarding your conclusion.
              I don't think they are cutting corners or that it's about cutting costs.
              Nor do I think it's bad judgement.
              -> I think it's intentional.

              Why?
              - If they put in week parts and give it just enough warranty they'll be selling another unit in a year or two.
              It's called: "Planned obsolescence".

              Arguments I don't buy and why:
              -
              The cutting costs argument doesn't hold water with me. When you buy caps in vast quantities the difference between good and bad brands is nil. For caps of the size/grade you'd find in the power supply we're talking less than 5 cents each cap.
              The difference for the smaller caps found in the bulk of the unit is probably less than a penny each in bulk.
              -
              Poor design? Bad judgement?
              GIVE ME A BREAK!
              SMPS have been around for decades and those found in LCD's are pretty basic/simple. Same goes for the rest of the unit. There might be new IC chips now and then but the basic design is NOT new technology. The display sections of LCD's have been around for over 20 years. [My first laptop was a TFT screen and built before 1998.] The only thing 'new' about the TV's is using the HD tuners/decoders but those parts aren't where 'stone dead, won't turn on, and no display' problems come from and even those parts have been around almost a decade now. (To reinforce that: Sets without HD tuners have as many and the same problems as HD sets.)
              -
              If they built them to break people would lose faith in the brand.
              THE MANUFACTURERS DON'T CARE.
              For LCD TV/Monitors the label on the front rarely reflects the actual manufacturer.
              [It's the manufacturer that chooses the caps, not the 'brand' on the label.]
              Funai for instance is the actual manufacturer behind [many or all] Sylvania, Magnavox[Since Sept 2008], Philips[Since Sept 2008], Symphonic, Emerson, Element[Circuit City], Ilo[Walmart], Durabrand[Walmart], Polaroid, Insignia[Best Buy], and probably numerous others.
              Does Funai care if 2,000,000 people lose faith in Insignia?
              NO, because 1,500,000 of them are going to go with the same price range and replace it with one of the other 'brands' Funai builds and they will make up the other 500,000 with people switching from their competitor's line-up.
              - So, it's in Funai's best interest to give a short warranty and have the screen die in 12-24 months. Then they can sell another unit.

              Note: Don't take what I just said to mean these 'brands' are interchangeable or have interchangeable parts.
              Some of them are but Funai has many different factories.
              Lets say there are 3 factories building 22" screens.
              Each one is building a DIFFERENT 22" unit.
              Factory 1 builds for A,B,C 'brands'.
              Factory 2 builds for D, E, F 'brands'.
              Factory 3 builds for X, Y, Z 'brands'.
              Few if any parts will be interchangeable between units made by different factories.
              The one thing that will be consistent is that ALL of them will have crap caps.

              I'm just picking on Funai because I have 3 of them (all different 'brands') in the shop right now.
              Funai is certainly are NOT the only one playing this game but they are probably the biggest player.

              ~~~

              There will be MILLIONS[+] of busted and fairly new LCD screens out there for the next few years at least.
              Good time to know how to solder.
              Factory replacement PSUs are running $100-$250-ish and old ones can usually be rebuilt for under $15.
              Even units with shattered screens have a PSU that can be rebuilt and sold.

              .
              Last edited by PCBONEZ; 01-17-2009, 02:08 PM.
              Mann-Made Global Warming.
              - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

              -
              Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

              - Dr Seuss
              -
              You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
              -

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

                Hmm. Thanks for that, I wasn't thinking of it. heh

                Truth is, cost do matter to them, 25,000, 50,000, one million caps and save 1 to 5 cents each. Do the math. My one of my co-worker worked with many major brands and told me this truth and other things when I saying I'm sick of this changing stuff and designs. And reason the boards even they are same but have different parts or designs and sometimes downright aren't compatible all the time is they consistently revise the boards for part availablity and fixes if deemed a issue.

                Cheers, Wizard

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

                  >>> Truth is, cost do matter to them. <<<

                  I don't buy that story in this case. - Sorry, that's bogus when it come to caps.
                  - If that's their thinking then they are STUPID at business and I don't think they are.

                  The cost difference to use good caps over bad in a $500 TV would be something like $5 or $10.
                  That's <2% and passing it to the customers wouldn't even be noticed.
                  Result is zero cost difference to the manufacturer.

                  Further, their savings by way of fewer returns and RMA's would far outweigh anything they would save using cheap caps.

                  They use cheap caps on purpose but lowering the build cost is not the reason.

                  The reason is they know the majority of the TV's will live just past the warranty and then shit themselves.

                  At that point they get to sell replacement parts at extortionate prices or a whole new TV.

                  A PSU is VERY basic and simple compared to a PSU for a computer.
                  Much less sophisticated and fewer parts.
                  Yet they cost $150-$350 from the manufacturer.
                  Just that profit has to be in the $125-$325 range - per unit.
                  [And they still use the cheap caps.....]

                  .
                  Mann-Made Global Warming.
                  - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                  -
                  Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                  - Dr Seuss
                  -
                  You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                  -

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

                    Q: Do I blame the manufacturer for poor reliability issues?

                    A: Hell yes I do! why? because they're the ones who've supposedly done the R&D, you choose to use sub-standard components then you're deliberately choosing to build sub-standard equipment... and that's the bottom line, after all that's happened you'd think PSU manufacturers for example would spend the little bit extra on quality capacitors to create a market leading device, but no it's profit before quality control and the consumers be damned!
                    Viva LA Retro!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

                      I have no problem buying unknown brands when it comes to LCD monitors. The truth is they tend to be both cheaper and relatively easy/cheap to fix. Most monitors, whether they are HP, Samsung, LG, Soyo, or Sceptre tend to "fail" for the same reason, bad capacitors or bad backlights. I've repaired tons of monitors from all types of different brands, and they tend to not be very different in terms of lifespan and reliability.

                      Its that reason why I tend to just go with whats cheaper. The ones to really stay away from are the moderately bad or moderately good brands like Westinghouse and Acer, respectively. The newer sets (2007-present) from them have had horrible QC issues.

                      When it comes to LCD TVs, most are made by such different companies, half the time it doesn't matter. Generally I just try and get a good deal on a Sony, Samsung, Sharp or Toshiba set. They are nice sets and they tend to last >3yrs without issues. The problem with LCD TVs is that they cost so much more to repair.

                      Wow, lots of rambling. In all, I don't blame manufacturers for bad caps, I consider all manufacturers relatively unreliable, so....I just try to get the best deal possible when I need something.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

                        I really think this is why the Japanese sets last a bit longer....Panasonic in particular.

                        I cleaned the dust out of a Panasonic CRT set.....pretty much all Panasonic (Matsushita) caps.

                        Panasonic now owns Sanyo as well.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Do bad caps reflect badly on the end product manufacturer?

                          That Panasonic CRT have bad caps because they were using 85C and general purpose caps in critical areas around flyback's outputs and SMPS if used and vertical circuit. I done so many of these in the "golden" era of CRT days.

                          Cheers, Wizard

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X