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    #41
    Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

    It's better than eagle which limits you to 100x80 and 2 layers or something ridiculous like that.

    DipTrace has the 500pin limitation but if you ask nicely some distributor or reseller, you may get a higher limit. They're allowed (but not required) to give people keys with the limit set on 1000 pins.

    ps. And you can easily find serial keys for DipTrace online if you really want to pirate it.


    KiCad is open source and free but has a lot of quirks which may make it harder for someone to later transition to other software products considered more "professional". Persons whould have to re-learn some things and it can be annoying.

    I can also suggest Zuken CADSTAR, though the free version is limited to 300 pins and 50 components : https://www.zuken.com/en/products/pc...ftware/express

    It's heavily used in Asian countries and Sony used to work with this one a lot, not so popular in other parts but it's good software.

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      #42
      Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

      i dont design boards, i reverse engineer them.
      i have drawn huge multi-page schems with probably several thousand pins on the free version of eagle!!!!!

      Comment


        #43
        Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

        I've been using gEDA, didn't know Kicad was OSS as well, so I installed it. Running on Linux.

        Gosh, UI of gEDA gschem and kicad themselves are so different from each other... I guess I'll need to figure out kicad as there seems to be a bigger following.

        Comment


          #44
          Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

          well i just tried kicad.
          i draw a bad schematic - intentionally.
          then tried to edit it.

          my conclusion is that it's either poorly documented - or it's bullshit.

          draw a wire between 2 points with a bend or 2 in it.

          then try to grab it and bend it straight - you cant - the whole wire just moves on the grid without changing shape.

          so the only way to correct it would be to delete it and draw it again.
          it also probably means you cant drag large parts around the sheet later and have all the wires follow it.

          i wanted a schematic entry tool, not a fucking paint package - if i wanted that i could use gimp.

          back to eagle!

          Comment


            #45
            Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

            heh, I'm going to give kicad another chance sometime. Unfortunately every cad tool has its quirks.

            I thought I saw a demo where the guy moves a part and all the wires stay connected to it...

            Unfortunately it's "new" to me, always annoying to work with new software and go away from something that "just works"...

            Comment


              #46
              Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

              Actually I was sort of able to straighten a piece of wire without redrawing, but it's not as intuitive as in gEDA. A lot of right clicking is needed, and very confusing.

              Back on topic I guess...

              ok fixed the overshoot... welcome to my first kicad schematic.

              oh gawd screwed up again, need to edit more...

              I forgot if the 90s2313/tiny2313 could sink or source more current. I think it's sink, and should be using CC MAN74s instead of CA MAN71s. Actually know what, omitting digit drivers is probably not a good idea. Version 2...
              Attached Files
              Last edited by eccerr0r; 05-20-2017, 01:20 PM.

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                #47
                Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                Why am I looking at datasheet again, yes, the 90S2313 can sink enough current to not need the digit drivers in CC configuration but not CA. The LEDs won't be extremely bright but should be sufficient to be visible with an average current of 1.5mA per segment or so. For LED brightness, yes, need the digit drivers.

                Comment


                  #48
                  Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                  Originally posted by mariushm View Post
                  - . I think it would help NOT quoting my huge messages every time you reply. -
                  I'll make sure not to quote the whole post from now on, with the larger posts.

                  Originally posted by mariushm View Post
                  ...As for debouncing, for just 1-2 buttons, I generally find it enough to just use a resistor and a capacitor .. the resistor would limit the current and charge speed and the capacitor basically blocks the erroneous hits..

                  5v ... [ resistor ] ---[button ] ---[ capacitor to ground ] -- [ input pin ]
                  I will try this. I purchased a book the other day at Barnes and Noble. It's called Practical Electronics for Inventors (4th edition). I understand how to pick what voltage a capacitor needs to be rated for when I'm building a circuit, but I still don't understand how to figure out what capacitance I need. Also, I still don't know how to figure out what ripple current rating they need to be rated for and how to determine what ESR value the cap should have for my desired needs. Hopefully this book fills in the gaps.

                  Originally posted by mariushm View Post
                  ...In software, some very simple debouncing technique would be to just read the pin state multiple times and change the internal state when enough 1s or enough 0s are read.

                  ...A simpler version could be made which uses more memory in theory (probably works best with 2 or 4 bytes for each input) but saves cpu cycles because you don't have to check if number is higher than 255 or lower than 0 when adding or substracting...
                  I might give these software solutions a shot, just to see how they work. My technique, so far, has been to check for a button press, and if detected, just wait 200ms or so, and then loop until it's no longer pressed. It seemed to work, but I wanted to learn about hardware solutions and you also gave me some great ideas for other software solutions to try, which might be a bit more efficient / accurate.

                  Originally posted by mariushm View Post
                  Other solutions ... read about schmitt triggers and how could be used to debounce ... there's even special ICs to do debouncing (but usually expensive and actually meant to be used for high frequency switches not manual push buttons)
                  I've read about the schmitt triggers and debouncing but I'll reread it. Maybe it'll make more sense to me now. I also seen those expensive debouncing ICs before. I'll read through the links you sent me. Thanks!
                  -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                    Originally posted by mariushm View Post
                    ...KiCad is open source and free but has a lot of quirks which may make it harder for someone to later transition to other software products considered more "professional"...
                    I thought KiCad was supposed to be "professional". Is that not the case? I thought it was like Adobe Photoshop is to The Gimp as Eagle is to the KiCad. I thought Eagle Pro was used by a lot of professionals, but if you wanted a free open source equivalent, that was KiCad. Is KiCad more for just hobbyists?

                    I found Eagle easy to use, whereas I found with KiCad, I've had to do a lot of learning. With Eagle, I was able to figure a lot out just by playing around, but with KiCad, I have to search google to learn how to do almost everything!

                    I'll give the other softwares you mentioned a try if I struggle with KiCad.
                    -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                      Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post
                      heh, I'm going to give kicad another chance sometime. Unfortunately every cad tool has its quirks.

                      I thought I saw a demo where the guy moves a part and all the wires stay connected to it...

                      Unfortunately it's "new" to me, always annoying to work with new software and go away from something that "just works"...
                      Yeah, same here. I saw a demo just like that. I think it's all about learning how to do it properly. I've been watching the videos on their site. The quick 20-minute (or so) start-up video by some guy was nice, but he used a lot of keyboard shortcuts. He suggested a person memorize them and maybe do some custom mapping. For me, that's a bit hard. Neurologist I see is having me tested to see if I got the early onsets of dementia now. Some days, my memory works great, other days, it seems to be really bad. I keep trying to challenge my mind though, hoping that at least slows down the degradation of the white matter.
                      -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                        Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post
                        ...Actually know what, omitting digit drivers is probably not a good idea. Version 2...
                        Quick question here. Those PDFs were creating in KiCad, right? How are we supposed to read the blue trace coming from the LED segments? Is that how KiCad drew them, or did you just do it that way to save time or something? Is it pin 1 of the LED segment is connected to PB0 (pin 12) of the DIP20 package, pin 13 of the LED segment is connected to PB1, so on and so fourth? Pin 9 of the LED segment would be connected to PB7?

                        Thanks.
                        -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                          Yes it was a kicad schematic I threw together to experiment with how to use it as I've never used it before. This was intended to sort of be a possible design solution to the presented problem.

                          The blue bus was a detail I did not fully flush out, but normally the fat wires are buses (meaning, multiple wires in parallel) as a convention. Imagine it connected however you want, but you don't short out all the output pins together . Normally you'd specify which bits you want to connect to the bus but I didn't do that. For multiplexing you'd connect all the A segments together and then connect to one of the PBx pins through a resistor, say A segments to PB0, B to PB1, etc., then the decimal point to PB7.

                          I didn't specify any values for any of the components either, so it's not like it's a finished product, and I don't think an op amp with one connects is really useful (though I am assuming the use of the programmable internal pullups in the 90S2313/Tiny2313 for the buttons...)

                          Of the two GPL schematic capture programs I've used now, I think gEDA is closer to "professional" but gEDA is also quirky. Alas you have to use what you have to use, and you have to learn it...

                          And yes I'd do the debouncing in software ... Reminds me of the other project I was working on, a soft SMPS with AT90S4433. It worked pretty horribly, but it drove an HD44780 LCD and had four buttons to control its operation that were debounced in software. As I didn't have enough CPU cycles as it is, I used the LCD refresh cycle as the delay for the button debounce...
                          Last edited by eccerr0r; 05-21-2017, 03:49 PM.

                          Comment


                            #53
                            Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                            Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post
                            Yes it was a kicad schematic I threw together to experiment with how to use it as I've never used it before. This was intended to sort of be a possible design solution to the presented problem.
                            ...
                            Thank you, I understand now. I thought for some reason it was completed but just limitations of the software. I'll also try that gEDA program. I used it a long time ago I think.

                            I was just looking into gEDA (at their website). I saw the GPL v2 license they use and started thinking. KiCad uses a similar license. I couldn't find this information on Google (only tried for a few minutes). I couldn't find a good query name I think though.

                            If I make a project with KiCad or gEDA, does it need to remain open source / open hardware? Or, if I wanted, could I use either to make proprietary closed source / closed hardware projects? I understand that I cannot charge money for KiCad or gEDA, but I wonder about the projects I create?

                            Right now, it's not an issue. I plan on making my stuff opensource / open hardware, but I was just curious. No telling what the future might hold.
                            -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                            Comment


                              #54
                              Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                              No, hardware or even software built with GPL software that doesn't use GPL hardware/software are not restricted to GPL.

                              BTW my schematic I have yet to put a license so watch out... LOL... actually it should be Creative Commons/Public Domain because well, it's kind of obvious how it's designed...

                              However if I linked in GPL code into the firmware of the microcontroller, the software may be subject to GPL restrictions, at the minimum the GPL portion needs to be changeable by the end user.

                              Comment


                                #55
                                Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                                Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post
                                No, hardware or even software built with GPL software that doesn't use GPL hardware/software are not restricted to GPL.

                                BTW my schematic I have yet to put a license so watch out... LOL... actually it should be Creative Commons/Public Domain because well, it's kind of obvious how it's designed...

                                However if I linked in GPL code into the firmware of the microcontroller, the software may be subject to GPL restrictions, at the minimum the GPL portion needs to be changeable by the end user.
                                Thank you. I honestly cannot see why I'd ever make something that wasn't open hardware / open software. I was just curious. I figure whatever I make, if I share with the world, they can learn from it, examine it, show me better ways of doing it, etc. Closed source, then no one really benefits.
                                -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                                  I just ordered another book, called The Art of Electronics (3rd Edition). We bought it from https://www.bookdepository.com. Yesterday, they had it for 59.96$ (no VAT, free shipping), but today, they have it listed for 69.39$ (no VAT, free shipping). The no VAT is for me. If you live in the UK, there might be VAT.

                                  I read this is a really good book. I think that'll be the main book I learn from and read first. I think the Practical Electronics for Engineering will be a supplement.

                                  There's other sites that sell the Art of Electronics for really cheap, new. Like 33$. The website for the book says there's a lot of crappy counterfeits going for. Dave from EEVBlog got one of the counterfeit books in the mail. The website for the book lists sources where you can buy a legitimate copy. Barnes and Noble is one of them, Amazon is another. There's a few others, but that book depository was on the list, so I believe it's a legitimate copy, despite it normally retailing for around 120$. I think I got a good deal on it.

                                  Anyone ever read it?
                                  -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                                    i had that book, big black book with yellow text - the cover i mean.
                                    i passed it on to someone else.
                                    it's very good if your wanting to learn analog stuff.
                                    not too usefull if your doing digital or software work though - it pre-dates that mostly.

                                    this is a free ebook worth having btw.
                                    Attached Files

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                                      Originally posted by stj View Post
                                      i had that book, big black book with yellow text - the cover i mean.
                                      i passed it on to someone else.
                                      it's very good if your wanting to learn analog stuff.
                                      not too usefull if your doing digital or software work though - it pre-dates that mostly.

                                      this is a free ebook worth having btw.
                                      Thanks Stj!

                                      Is this the book you had?

                                      https://pictures.abebooks.com/isbn/9...510-us-300.jpg

                                      If so, I believe that's the first edition. The one I've purchased is the third edition. The third edition was published April 30th, 2015. This is what it says about the third edition:

                                      Code:
                                      At long last, here is the thoroughly revised and updated third edition of the hugely successful The Art of Electronics. It is widely accepted as the best single authoritative book on electronic circuit design, and is in fact so popular that it has been counterfeited - so beware if purchasing from a third party via an online retailer, as you may receive a very inferior physical product. In addition to new or enhanced coverage of many topics, the third edition includes 90 oscilloscope screenshots illustrating the behavior of working circuits, dozens of graphs giving highly useful measured data of the sort that is often buried or omitted in datasheets but which you need when designing circuits, and 80 tables (listing some 1650 active components), enabling intelligent choice of circuit components by listing essential characteristics (both specified and measured) of available parts. The new Art of Electronics retains the feeling of informality and easy access that helped make the earlier editions so successful and popular. It is an indispensable reference and the gold standard for anyone, student or researcher, professional or amateur, who works with electronic circuits
                                      Here's a link to the tables of contents from the third edition:

                                      http://artofelectronics.net/the-book/table-of-contents/

                                      There's a good bit of digital electronics in the table of contents for the third edition. Programmable Logic Devices, Microcontrollers, interfacing digital and analog, etc.

                                      Do you know if yours was the third edition or if it was an earlier edition?
                                      -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                                        I figured these two books I purchased would be a good starting point, and then I'd find books that are dedicated to more or less what I'm working on. For example, there's book written just for RF circuits. There's books written for just PICs, etc. I figured after I get a good foundation, I can look into books that delve a little deeper into the specific subjects I'm interested in (like that stm32 ebook).
                                        -- Law of Expanding Memory: Applications Will Also Expand Until RAM Is Full

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          Re: suggestions for 3 digit 7-segment display counter.

                                          Originally posted by Spork Schivago View Post
                                          Thanks Stj!

                                          Is this the book you had?

                                          https://pictures.abebooks.com/isbn/9...510-us-300.jpg
                                          that's it - it was a long time ago so i dont know the edition.

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