Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

[stj]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

i dont like all that wireless crap, frankly there arent eough frequency's for all the crap out there.
also it's a health hazzard to be surrounded by transmitters all the time if they are in the Ghz range.

if it's the 433Mhz ism band it wont be so bad, but still there is just too much stuff and too few frequency's

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

I agree with the too few frequencies. However, doesn't stuff like bluetooth take care of this problem? With the pin numbers, we don't have to worry about interference with other bluetooth devices, right? That statement doesn't have anything to do with Z-Wave, I don't think they use bluetooth. You have a very valid point there. You know a lot more about frequencies than I do, I'm just curious.

About the GHz transmitters....why are they a health hazard? Do you have any scientific studies that confirm this? Our portable phone in the house uses a frequency in the GHz range I believe. Also, so does our wireless router.

[stj]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

Ghz range can cause resonance in cells.
that's how the ovens cause friction between the water molecules.

as for bluetooth,
any digital packet radio is still limited to a specific number of "time slots".
too many users and you have problems.

[stj]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

btw, if you had got your router from canada it would have come with a health warning about not operating it within about 1.5meters of anywhere you are stationary.
(chair, bed etc)

maybe more - that range is stated for client devices that transmit shorter bursts.

[televizora]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

Ghz range can cause resonance in cells.
that's how the ovens cause friction between the water molecules.

Only if the transmission power is high enough. Understand, client devices are transmitting with between 50mW and 500mW, usually 100-150mW.
This is not enough to cause any troubles.
Even more - microwave radiation can't permanently hurt you unless the power is very high, because it's not ionizing radiation and can't break your DNA apart. Typically, even if you heat up, the circulation of your blood will disperse the heat, unless you are making magnetron gun at home and you are trying to commit suicide by bypassing the protection of a microwave oven.
There is BIG difference between miliwatts, distributed across a circular transmission diagram(because of the dipole antenna) and a KILOWATT concentrated in closed space like the interior of a microwave oven, which is a parallelepiped with volume of about 10-15 liters.
REALLY, DO NOT EVER PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE MICROWAVE OVEN. In every other case you should be just fine.

[stj]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

your talkin about long-term constant exposure, low power makes little difference.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

btw, if you had got your router from canada it would have come with a health warning about not operating it within about 1.5meters of anywhere you are stationary.
(chair, bed etc)

maybe more - that range is stated for client devices that transmit shorter bursts.

Well, the router is maybe 2 and a 1/2 feet away from me. I wonder if that's gonna be a problem.

[televizora]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

your talkin about long-term constant exposure, low power makes little difference.

Let's say it that way - Even if the microwaves, transmitted with very low power can make your body cells to heat somewhat, this heat is dispersed thanks to your blood circulation and dissipated in the environment.
Just think about it - you are living in the sea of a microwave radiation. Even when there was no radio-electronics at all, the SUN bathed the humanity with bursts of electromagnetic radiation. So other stars. And every heat source. Including you. So stop being paranoid.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

Only if the transmission power is high enough. Understand, client devices are transmitting with between 50mW and 500mW, usually 100-150mW.
This is not enough to cause any troubles.
Even more - microwave radiation can't permanently hurt you unless the power is very high, because it's not ionizing radiation and can't break your DNA apart. Typically, even if you heat up, the circulation of your blood will disperse the heat, unless you are making magnetron gun at home and you are trying to commit suicide by bypassing the protection of a microwave oven.
There is BIG difference between miliwatts, distributed across a circular transmission diagram(because of the dipole antenna) and a KILOWATT concentrated in closed space like the interior of a microwave oven, which is a parallelepiped with volume of about 10-15 liters.
REALLY, DO NOT EVER PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE MICROWAVE OVEN. In every other case you should be just fine.

Our biology teacher in high school told a story about how before he was a teacher, he had this job working in some factory, trying to pay off the college bills. He said their microwave oven's glass was missing. It had gotten broken, and he was freaking out! People were standing right in front of it and he thought they were getting hit with the microwaves. Then he researched it a bit or someone told him, I dunno which, but as it turns out, that metal plate with all those little holes are the protection. He said the microwaves are too big to fit through those little holes and that's why no one was getting hurt.

If that metal plate wasn't there either though, it wouldn't hurt you? I saw someone put a fly in a microwave once and turn it on. It damaged the fly really bad and it was just twitching until I put it out of it's misery.

[televizora]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

If that metal plate wasn't there either though, it wouldn't hurt you? I saw someone put a fly in a microwave once and turn it on. It damaged the fly really bad and it was just twitching until I put it out of it's misery.

It will hurt you. Because of the power/intensity. The difference in the power is as dramatic, as the difference between your heater at home and a industrial blast-furnace. The first one will make it comfortable for you in the winter nights, the second one will incinerate you in a matter of seconds. Your microwave oven is essentially a Faraday cage with microwave transmitter inside.
Even a 1kW light bulb will seriously hurt/burn you. But not a 0.5W light bulb inside the LCD screen of your car radio. So the power matters.
p.s

A Faraday cage works by shielding against Radio Frequency (RF) signals. The shielding material does not have to be solid metal and it can have gaps in it, however, the gaps must be smaller than a fraction of the wavelength in order to be effective. A large radio wave hitting a small gap in metal shielding gets bent (diffracted) around the edges in the gap or hole. If the hole is large enough, the wave is somewhat diminished (attenuated) by the diffraction, but if the hole is small enough, the diffraction causes enough induced interference that the wave is countered and does not pass through. A standard rule is that mesh holes at a ratio of 1/10 of the wavelength size, or smaller, will provide solid shielding against penetration.

Microwave ovens use a frequency of 2.45 Ghz. That gives them a wavelength of about 12 cm and a mesh hole shielding requirement of 1.2 cm or smaller. We’ve all seen the mesh shielding material embedded in the glass door of a microwave oven to protect us from the energy of the radio waves.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

It will hurt you. Because of the power/intensity. The difference in the power is as dramatic, as the difference between your heater at home and a industrial blast-furnace. The first one will make it comfortable for you in the winter nights, the second one will incinerate you in a matter of seconds. Your microwave oven is essentially a Faraday cage with microwave transmitter inside.
Even a 1kW light bulb will seriously hurt/burn you. But not a 0.5W light bulb inside the LCD screen of your car radio. So the power matters.
p.s

Thank you for explaining that. Your analogy worked perfectly. I understand now.

[stj]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

if your next to the router all day and start to get a headache or eyestrain - remember this thread.

[televizora]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

if your next to the router all day and start to get a headache or eyestrain - remember this thread.

I am all day nearby such equipment. I also use mobile phone, as you too.
I also you laptop, this means all day exposure. Nothing wrong with me.
On the other hand, directives like in your country are guilty of that the power of the routers is so restricted, that I can't even cover my whole home with good wifi signal using only one router.

[stj]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

so run ethernet - it's more reliable.

[televizora]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

so run ethernet - it's more reliable.

Please, explain me where exactly in my phone do I need to put the ethernet cable?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

I am all day nearby such equipment. I also use mobile phone, as you too.
I also you laptop, this means all day exposure. Nothing wrong with me.
On the other hand, directives like in your country are guilty of that the power of the routers is so restricted, that I can't even cover my whole home with good wifi signal using only one router.

So certain countries restrict how much power a router can give off? I always thought it was just a limitation of the frequency that determines how far the signal in those routers went! I figured wireless G was wireless G and regardless of what router you used, for the most part, it'd have the same range.

I wonder if there's a way to adjust the power a little bit to get a little more range, without breaking anything.

I am slowly working on rewiring the entire house. CAT 6 Gigabit ethernet in each room, coax and CAT 5 for telephone. There will be a media center down in the basement, that holds all the splitters, patch panels, cable modem, etc. This is where the heart of the media shit will be. The central hub, so to speak.

What I want to do is add wifi as well, but I think I want to have a wifi router down in the basement and then maybe a repeater on each floor. We have a basement, a first floor, a 2nd floor and then an attic. I probably won't have one in the attic. Do you think that'd be possible? We've never had a multistory home and I'm not certain how good wifi is with the vertical stuff.

Would you put a repeater in the center of each floor, in the ceiling? That's what I was planning on doing, except for maybe the upstairs. I might have one in the hallway or maybe one in each room, I dunno yet. I'll probably be using Wireless AC for the frequency.

[televizora]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

So certain countries restrict how much power a router can give off?
...I wonder if there's a way to adjust the power a little bit to get a little more range, without breaking anything.
...Would you put a repeater in the center of each floor, in the ceiling? That's what I was planning on doing, except for maybe the upstairs. I might have one in the hallway or maybe one in each room, I dunno yet. I'll probably be using Wireless AC for the frequency.

Yes, the regulations restrict the maximum output power. The maximum power differs in different countries and different bands/channels/frequencies. I found out by reading the regulation restrictions, that if you choose Venezuela you will get all the channels with the highest power compared to the other regions.
I really don't know where you live. And how much concreete and steel there is inside your building. I don't know what is the area of each floor. But objectively speaking, you would definitely need at least one router at each floor. The problem is that even if your router has good transmit power and good receiver, the problem is that usually the devices on the other side are deaf. Fox example, the antenna inside your phone is very small, as the transmitter. So, neither your phone's transmitter can penetrate wit it's signal several walls, nor your phone has the capability to hear the weaker signals.
Because the receiver is actually limited because of the antenna and it's sensitivity, it doesn't matter how much you pump the transmission power.
If you want to have good WIFI and you are willing to invest some money, there are access points from the manufacturer UBNT.
But if your building is a concrete and steel, better install several cheaper devices, because even with one high end device, the attenuation of the signal inside the walls will be serious as the signal degradation.

[srhofmann]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

Spork,

If you want to play with how much power your router uses try dd-wrt.

The only way to reliably determine how many routers/repeaters you will need is to try it. Think of the area that a router covers as donut shaped. A router in the ceiling of the basement may be all you need to cover the basement and the first floor. Don't forget that there are a limited number of 2.4 GHz channels available(with a lot of overlap), if you really are going to shove 4 access points in your house you should be using 5GHz routers and devices that support that frequency.

You should also play with the placement of the access points. In my parents house they have great signal strength on the 2nd floor and the single access point is in the basement on top of a sheet metal cold air return. At my house the only way that I get wireless access in my detached garage is to have the garage repeater up in the garage attic, it's 30 feet away from my main router, Turns out my garage has foil faced fiberglass insulation in the walls and foil covered sheathing.

[diif]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

A decent wireless AP on the 1st or second floor should be all you need. There are only 2 of you in the house.
As mentioned by televizora, Ubiquiti stuff is good.
Forget the donut shape, buy one that does beamforming.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

Yes, the regulations restrict the maximum output power. The maximum power differs in different countries and different bands/channels/frequencies. I found out by reading the regulation restrictions, that if you choose Venezuela you will get all the channels with the highest power compared to the other regions.
I really don't know where you live. And how much concreete and steel there is inside your building. I don't know what is the area of each floor. But objectively speaking, you would definitely need at least one router at each floor. The problem is that even if your router has good transmit power and good receiver, the problem is that usually the devices on the other side are deaf. Fox example, the antenna inside your phone is very small, as the transmitter. So, neither your phone's transmitter can penetrate wit it's signal several walls, nor your phone has the capability to hear the weaker signals.
Because the receiver is actually limited because of the antenna and it's sensitivity, it doesn't matter how much you pump the transmission power.
If you want to have good WIFI and you are willing to invest some money, there are access points from the manufacturer UBNT.
But if your building is a concrete and steel, better install several cheaper devices, because even with one high end device, the attenuation of the signal inside the walls will be serious as the signal degradation.

I live in New York state, in the United States of America. There's nothing preventing a Venezuela router working with an American wireless NIC, so long as the frequencies are the same, right? So an AC router from Venezuela would work with an AC wireless NIC from America, right?

Here, our houses are made out of wood. There's some metals in the wall, like the ductwork for the furnace, nails, and the metals in the electrical wire, but the frame of the house is made out of some sort of lumber and there's drywall over that lumber. Most newer houses have some sort of insulation between the lumber in the walls. Here, in my house, we have fiberglass insulation between the studs in the wall. The ceilings and floors are the same.

My professor in networking (a horrible networking professor btw) told us of a 3-2-1 rule. I can't find anything on the net about it (but I did find something about the 5-4-3 rule). Anyway, I can't remember exactly how it went, but it was something like you could have a maximum of 3 routers, 2 repeaters, 1 something. I know that's not right, but there is (or maybe was) a limit to how many devices you could hook up in a network. Does that still apply? I see cities like Binghamton are providing wireless for the entire city for free. I wonder how they do that.

Maybe I should have one router down in the basement, one repeater on the first floor in the dining room, then one repeater in each bedroom upstairs? We can access the wireless in the dining room even though our wireless router is in the den. Here's a crude drawing

|-----------------------|
|      |  den  |
|living room|----||-----|
|      -      |
|------------ dining  |
| mud room -  room  |
|-----------|-----------|

There's more to the first floor, like kitchen and bathroom, but they're to the left of the dining room and I didn't add them.

I'm okay with saving up my money and doing it right. Thank's for recommending UBTN. I was leaning towards Cisco, despite Cisco being really expensive. I like Cisco and have some Cisco router / switches around here somewhere. I don't really want to go for consumer grade products but I guess high end consumer grade might not be bad. I want something that's going to last and perform really well. I don't want something I'm going to replace in a year, granted, I might regret the Cisco when the new standards come out.