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Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

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    Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

    I got a batch 30 of IBM/Lenovo Thinkcenter boards in for repair from a great metropolitan newspaper.....Yes, that is true, I just won't reveal the city, as it'll give away the client (and it is a large well known city).

    I've repaired a lot of boards with cooked MBZ and MCZ caps over the years (mostly overheated Dells), but this was the first I've encountered this issue. Their IT guy was pulling his hair out, he told me only a few of them had bloated caps, but all of them either wouldn't POST or wouldn't finish booting the OS before rebooting or BSoD'ing...even the ones with caps that 'appeared' perfect. He already replaced PSU's and eliminated that factor...so they show up here....

    I first took one that actually had a couple bloaters on it, right next to a couple FETs in the middle of the board, and replaced only the bloaters, and then bench tested it. The board would POST, but would freeze under MEMTEST in about 2 minutes....so I tried the same thing with another one, same result. There was one last board left that had a couple bloaters, I replaced the bloated caps only, and that one wouldn't even POST. ...so now what...

    I started pulling random caps of the same value of the bloaters and checking them. I was bewildered at the results!! These are so far out of spec, I thought my Sencore had gone screwy, so I checked it with a new cap just to make sure that wasn't the case, and it wasn't the tester that was out!!

    All these caps datecodes range from 2006~2008. They are genuine, not fakes, and original to the boards. They have never been recapped.



    They were all 1000uF 10v Rubycon MBZ Series:


    You will note that the bung is flat, no leakage or damage:


    Same with the vent, it's pristine:


    Ok, here's where it gets interesting!! The value is SUPPOSED to be 1000uF! it's reading 2.78uF


    LOL @ 27 OHMS ESR:


    I pulled several hundred of these over the course of a couple days, this is just one cap that I profiled in this article. The rest were just as screwy. I found there was no pattern. Some were so far out, the LC102 wouldn't even get a reading, or show an open load. They would come from random/different sections of the board, clearly they didn't overheat, yet they were worse than a teapo as far as being out of tolerance but not leaking/bloated!!

    The aftermath:
    I recapped all the boards completely removing ALL their MBZ's and replacing them with Nichicon HM's of the same value. The boards now run flawlessly, and are back in operation. I did check the other caps on the board, there were some Rubycon YK 220uF 16v and a couple Rubycon 470uF YK's as well. Those were all well in spec, it was just the MBZ's. Scary trend for the recappers that don't have the equipment to accurately check a capacitor. Every failed Rubycon I've ever dealt with in the past had vented/bloated/leaked.....
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    #2
    Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

    maybe I should review my stock and toss any in that range?

    or perhaps a bad batch?
    sigpic

    (Insert witty quote here)

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      #3
      Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

      If a machine cooks rubycons, I always try polymodding, and failing that, improving the ventilation. If you just recap it with lytics, you'll be back doing it again in a few years time.

      EDIT: I'd use something like http://search.digikey.com/us/en/prod...710-ND/2207246
      Last edited by c_hegge; 03-04-2012, 11:38 PM.
      I love putting bad caps and flat batteries in fire and watching them explode!!

      No wonder it doesn't work! You installed the jumper wires backwards

      Main PC: Core i7 3770K 3.5GHz, Gigabyte GA-Z77M-D3H-MVP, 8GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 1600, 240GB Intel 335 Series SSD, 750GB WD HDD, Sony Optiarc DVD RW, Palit nVidia GTX660 Ti, CoolerMaster N200 Case, Delta DPS-600MB 600W PSU, Hauppauge TV Tuner, Windows 7 Home Premium

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        #4
        Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

        ^
        These are for a client, I dont experiment with client machines (ie, polymodding). I also dont believe polymodding is the holy grail of failing lytics. I've had plenty of failed polymod attempts....but that discussion is for another thread.

        I'm thinking they were a bad run by rubycon. When recapping a particular model of board, especially when I have a lot of the same model, you can detect 'patterns' in the failures.....IE, certain clusters/groups of caps fail, while others don't. These failures were in sporadic places on the board, not in any particular 'trouble spot'. Some of the boards yielded not a single good one, every single one was like this. The cases are also fairly well vented. Not the greatest, but overheating doesn't seem to be the root....I've seen what overheating does to Rubycon caps.... IMO, these were just a junk batch. I'm posting this more as a heads up.....if you run into something similar strange behavior from a system, you may not want to trust some of these age group MBZ's that 'appear' ok. It's the first I've see this in Rubycon.....lets see if it was just a fluke, or if this is going to become the norm...
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          #5
          Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

          I knew using Fujyuu to recap the motherboard was a good idea!
          /sarcasm

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            #6
            Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

            Originally posted by shovenose View Post
            I knew using Fujyuu to recap the motherboard was a good idea!
            /sarcasm
            sigpic

            (Insert witty quote here)

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              #7
              Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

              Originally posted by ratdude747 View Post
              Hehe I was joking.

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                #8
                Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                Wow, very interesting! Thanks for sharing.
                Do you think Rubycon/Lenovo would be interested in the failures, or not care?
                36 Monitors, 3 TVs, 4 Laptops, 1 motherboard, 1 Printer, 1 iMac, 2 hard drive docks and one IP Phone repaired so far....

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                  #9
                  Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                  Those do not look genuine to me... Vent ridge is too deep and printing quality is subpar. I have seen an incredibly good Panasonic FC fake, so I'm not surprised. Open one of the caps up and compare it under a microscope with an equivalent confirmed genuine part...
                  "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                  -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                    ^
                    they're real. The pic is just very close up....but I assure you they're genuine. The odds of IBM using fakes is pretty much nill....they get them factory direct, there is no middleman to the OEM's. I kinda wish this could be blamed on them being fakes, but they are not fakes.

                    here's a pic of one of the boards:

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                      #11
                      Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                      That is indeed very interesting. Will definitely keep this thread in mind before reusing old Rubycon MBZ caps (yes, I know I shouldn't reuse caps, but sometimes I don't have new caps in stock and just want to fix the issue ASAP... besides, I reuse caps for only my own stuff). Thank you for the heads-up TC.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                        IBM and Lenovo are in cohoots... Lenovo is a Chinese company... Isn't it possible Lenovo had something to do with this?
                        "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                        -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

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                          #13
                          Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                          ^
                          You're reading too far into it. it's no secret that ibm and lenovo are pals.....but on that note, name me one motherboard maker that isn't chinese besides tyan and supermicro.... The point being, the caps are real... There is absolutely no mistake about that. The pics shown are extremely close up with a DSLR camera, it does make them look a little different that close up, but I assure you they're real. I honestly wish I could say they weren't, it would explain this whole strange thread.
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                            #14
                            Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                            Yea, but Lenovo is a *Chinese* company... not Taiwanese. The difference being that there is a chance for counterfeit parts to enter the stream...

                            If you saw my Panasonic FC counterfeit (Last one on the left), you would think twice before considering them to be bona fide... You underestimate the counterfeiters... I would love to see microscope photos of the foil etching on them... and even if that matched, who knows about the electrolyte (Though I have to admit, this scenario would be very unlikely).
                            "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                            -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                              When a cap doesn't bloat it means the seal is bad. The seal must be good around the can and the two leads. If the seal is bad then the cap will have a short life.

                              Test the seal on those bad caps. Apply too much voltage to burn the cap up. If the seal is good it will bloat and explode like they do for c_hegge the capacitor seal clubber. Test many burning them out slower and slower. They should all bloat if the seal is good.

                              If c_hegge used voltage instead of fire he would be performing valuable capacitor seal research and having fun at the same time.
                              sig files are for morons

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                                #16
                                Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                                Would be interesting to see a dissection of a few of them to see how they failed. Dried-up as severach suggests, or something else?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                                  Just some stupid (but maybe on-point) questions. Are these mobos in machines that are active 24x7x52? And what is the rated life for these caps, at full ripple current, 105C? The reason I ask is that these caps are 4-6 years old (1 year = ~10000 hours). If they are a 2000-hour series, it may be that you are seeing end-of-life failures. IIRC, HMs are a 2000-hour series, IIRC, but those mobos may be replaced before 4-6 years pass.
                                  PeteS in CA

                                  Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
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                                    #18
                                    Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                                    As for testing for dry-out, remove the shrink wrap and use a pair of small diagonal cutters to pry up the lip of the can that retains the bung. The peel the can down a little and the guts should pull out easily. Done it scores of times, though with larger caps (18mm, 16mm and 12.5mm cans).
                                    PeteS in CA

                                    Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
                                    ****************************
                                    To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
                                    ****************************

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                                      #19
                                      Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                                      I saved a handfull of them. Autopsy to follow.
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                                        #20
                                        Re: Scary Trend of Rubycon MBZ failures - No bloating!!

                                        Taking caps apart at my former job was always fun, except for some cheapies that smelled like rotten fish. Those thing stunk even before opening the box in which they were shipped!
                                        PeteS in CA

                                        Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
                                        ****************************
                                        To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
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