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    Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

    This isn't "The ATX PSU Mod Guide", that is due soon when i'll finish my own build. It's just 'round the corner though, the hard part is done, i just have some little quirks to iron out.

    First of all, grab this schematic. Better yet, print it. You're going to need it. I have a couple more i'll post later.

    All Deer/L&C/Allied/whatever PSUs with TL494 and LM339 or LM393 use the same schematic mostly, but depending on what the engineer was smoking on at that time, there are some bewildering quirks to each model. From ultra crappy layout to absolutely pointless schemes. Alas, the one i picked for modification seems to have both.

    First of all, always use a lightbulb in series with the PSU when testing. This will prevent most spectacular failures. Preferably make a proper limiting device: mains plug on one end, double-pole switch, lightbulb in series after the switch, mains outlet on the other side. You can use a single pole switch if you make double sure you're switching the LIVE wire, but better safe than sorry.

    Sure, an ATX PSU can be modded into something like a big 13.8v source without major circuit modifications. All you have to do is rewind the transformer and coil, and you're done. But when you're trying to do +/-60v like i do, you're going to run into some interesting circuit behaviors. I'll note some of them.
    • Various resistors burning - mostly non-critical, you can either replace them with higher values, or let them burn till they fail open.
    • Small capacitors blowing up - you changed the output caps, all others should be running off the standby supply, no? Wrong.
    • TL494 blowing up - you assumed the TL494 was fed from the standby supply. Wrong again.
    • And my latest - driver transistors blowing up (the two C945 next to transformer T2 in the above schematic). Those aren't fed from the standby supply either. And some manufacturers like to put them in the most obscure places.


    For some reason, this particular power supply of mine doesn't have the 494 feed off a higher voltage winding of the 5vsb supply. 5vsb does kick it off, but then it derives its own supply from the base drive transformer. Short version: Whatever you're going to have on the highest voltage output of your power supply, you're gonna have on the 494. I discovered this only when the (open-loop) output went to 70 volts and the 494 failed.

    After replacement, i also closed the feedback loop. At 60 volts the 494 seems to be holding up - it has a 40v absolute maximum rating, but it appears to work fine at 60. Since this is the maximum voltage i intend my supply to produce, i won't have to worry, right? Wrong... With the lightbulb in series, even a small load was only supported by the power supply for a few seconds, then the transformer would start making a weird noise, and if i left the load connected for longer, the bulb would light up and all voltages would drop.

    I assumed this was due to the bulb, so i wired up the supply straight to the mains. It held the small load fine, so i upped the load. Next thing i know - same noise, and before i could disconnect the load, the output went to zero volts. First thought the transformer saturated and blew the power switches - but, it has the same number of primary turns as the original one. I couldn't have been farther from the truth. The power switches were okay.

    The fault turned to be the C945 driver transistors. "Collector-Emitter breakdown voltage: 50v". Aha. It now becomes apparent why the high voltage driver supply - the main power transistors require several amps of base drive current, while the C945s are really, really, really lame. 150mA is all they will do. So, to make it work, they use a base drive transformer with high turns ratio, and a high driving voltage to obtain the required current output.

    I'm going to fix this lazy man's way and put a dropper resistor and 33 volt zener to feed the 494 and driver transistors, but i'm still going to be changing out the drivers for 2N2222s. The lame driving scheme is also one of the reasons for the low efficiency of those junkers. And it still makes no sense why they didn't make a nice and stable supply from the 5vsb transformer to feed them.

    Anyway, hope this helps those who are on the same quest as mine.
    Originally posted by PeteS in CA
    Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
    A working TV? How boring!

    #2
    Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

    Did the zener + resistor mod for the 494 and used 2N2222 as drivers, and i'm getting 420W out of this puppy. That's quite a feat considering this platform usually blows up at ~250W, and i don't even have the proper output caps installed yet.

    The switching transistors are getting considerably hot though. I'll probably go with beefier ones.
    Originally posted by PeteS in CA
    Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
    A working TV? How boring!

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

      What efficiency at 420w? Has it declined significantly?

      Really useful information though. I'll digest it after my exams.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

        2.2A @ 230v AC = 506W. 420/506 = 83%. Not bad. The appropriately sized wiring for the new transformer and inductor and the low current demand (420W @ 91v is just 4.62A, that's 2.31A on each rail) definitely help at achieving higher efficiency even though i'm using some lame fast recovery diodes. I even have the diodes-on-a-bracket thing for the negative rail because i don't have any common anode ones. Positive rail rectifier is a FR1003 TO-220 (i assume that's 10A), negative rail is two FR303s (6A total). They had nearly the same voltage drop when checked with my DMM, that's why i picked them that way.

        Even though only the positive rail is sensed by the feedback loop, rail tracking is excellent, thanks to the construction of my output inductor. It is wound on an EE-33 core (two Es of an EI-33 put together), with 1.0mm (18AWG) wire. Air gap is around 2mm on all three legs. In retrospect i should have used one gauge smaller, because to get the core to fit i had to clamp things so hard managed to crack everything that could be cracked - bobbin, and all outer legs of the cores... Superglue + vise ftw. The inductor is 2x 1.1mH. This high value is required because of the low frequency (this supply works at 29kHz), the high voltage output, and the fact that i want to get away with just one 2200uF cap for each rail because that's what i have.

        The "magic" winding technique for my output inductor is as follows: Half of the positive rail winding, the whole negative rail winding, then the second half of the positive rail winding. Just like you make a transformer half primary - secondary - half primary, i applied the same technique to my inductor. And it turned out very well. I'll give you some numbers later, right now i'm cleaning up my dirty hack jobs, mounting parts to the proper side of the board, and enabling short circuit protection. But in preliminary testing, with a 100W load on one rail and ZERO load on the other, the voltage difference was under 10% between the pos and neg rails.

        The transformer is also built on an EE-33, thankfully, the wire for the transformer fit in the core without any major damage.

        The switchers are a pair of MJE13009s but they're those off-brand TO-220 ones, not TO-247. It started at 2.1A (87%) but as the switchers heated up efficiency dropped (of course).
        Last edited by Th3_uN1Qu3; 06-13-2011, 01:13 PM.
        Originally posted by PeteS in CA
        Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
        A working TV? How boring!

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

          Long story short, the switchers blew up. Seems like the little chinese who built this power supply didn't tighten one of the screws enough... Otherwise it would've held just fine.

          Bad news: It took out the driver transformer as well. How, i don't know. But it's screwed. The secondary side (where the drivers are connected) has gone bad. Worse, it won't run with any other driver transformer. I have given some thought at understanding the circuit. To put it simply, it sucks. This driving scheme is called proportional base drive and it relies on the current passing thru the main transformer to drive the bipolar transistors, hence the extra winding of the driver transformer in series with the main one. It's anything but flexible - it needs a minimum load to keep running, it won't start up with a load (that's why they have soft start), the voltage on the driver transistors varies with load, and the driver transformer is customized for the application. At best, it'll run if it feels like running.

          Okay, that was the bad news. The good news: The circuit can be hacked to run 'fets, get better efficiency, and require no minimum load. And it actually involves REMOVING parts. The driver transformer will have to be rewound as well, but at least you know what you'll be putting in there. You will also need to hack the standby supply to give at least 15v, but that's as easy as changing a resistor. And the driver transistors will DEFINITELY need to be 2N2222s or even better if you can (higher current).
          Last edited by Th3_uN1Qu3; 06-16-2011, 09:42 PM.
          Originally posted by PeteS in CA
          Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
          A working TV? How boring!

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

            Well, my usual streak of bad luck seems to have returned. The GDT i made didn't work. I probably messed up the phasing on one of the windings, but it doesn't really matter now, as this board has seen enough abuse as it is, it's unworkable already.

            Conclusion: To understand how a circuit works, you must first blow it up in every way imaginable. The funny thing is, i don't have any other 494-based supply to hack, the Hipros are way too crowded to bother... I shoulda just gone with cooking my own from the get go. But don't worry, this ain't over yet.
            Originally posted by PeteS in CA
            Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
            A working TV? How boring!

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

              Originally posted by Th3_uN1Qu3 View Post
              But don't worry, this ain't over yet.
              You're right, gotta get it working so ya have music for 'da party.'

              If not, I'm sure you'll find a way to scrounge/cobble together something else for the tunes... if you're still up.

              -Paul
              "pokemon go... to hell!"

              EOL it...
              Originally posted by shango066
              All style and no substance.
              Originally posted by smashstuff30
              guilty,guilty,guilty,guilty!
              guilty of being cheap-made!

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                Are you still trying to build a power supply for your amp?
                Also, the schematic shows that the +5VSB is produced by a 78L05. Is this correct? It seems strange, but at least it can supply more current than the +5VSB circuit in my Compaq's power supply. It's only rated for 20mA!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                  Originally posted by kaboom View Post
                  You're right, gotta get it working so ya have music for 'da party.'

                  If not, I'm sure you'll find a way to scrounge/cobble together something else for the tunes... if you're still up.

                  -Paul
                  Well, not much party for this year's birthday unfortunately. We have a guest in, and the school mate i used to have my birthday with (his birthday is on the 14th mine is on the 17th, and we'd always grab all our mates in high school and go somewhere together), decided that he'll have it at his home because he's out of $$$. Which wasn't true - he just chose to have his birthday with other people. He's been a real ass since we got into uni.

                  I have something for the tunes anyway. This is just "future proofing".

                  Originally posted by lti View Post
                  Are you still trying to build a power supply for your amp?
                  Well as a matter of fact i shoulda just gone and made the PCB for the 800W supply of my own design. At least if that blows up, i know what did, coz it's built with the absolute minimum of parts. Besides, it's been tested already with 1 transformer at half power so it should work fine with two at full power... This is meant to be a general purpose bench supply, for powering whatever. Though i can't say it's been all wasted time, because it gave me some new ideas for my circuit.

                  Originally posted by lti View Post
                  Also, the schematic shows that the +5VSB is produced by a 78L05. Is this correct? It seems strange, but at least it can supply more current than the +5VSB circuit in my Compaq's power supply. It's only rated for 20mA!
                  Yes, in the old Deer designs there was a 78L05. At least it prevented them from killing motherboards. It got removed when they found which resistors to tweak to modify the output voltage of the flyback supply.

                  News. It's yesterday's news but anyway. Phasing issue found and fixed in the GDT i built. Now i'm swapping the drivers out for beefier ones to see what happens... as i let the smoke out of the poor C945s. The standby supply had a 13v rail so i left it at that, did not mod it at all. Should be enough.

                  Attached some more schems. The one with PFC is a single transistor forward design, the one without is a half bridge. The base driver circuit is a bit simpler than on the one posted earlier, so you can figure out better what's going on. The two driver transistors are operating in a push-pull configuration with the base transformer.

                  Edit: GDT works fine, i'm getting the expected voltage and waveform out of the transfomer. The driver transistors still get stupid hot (even with the 2222s), but that just means i need higher power drivers (or just a bunch of them in parallel). I'm sure the transformer is not saturating, the math says it shouldn't, and one with a higher number of turns has the same result on the drivers. Hmm... wait. I changed the base resistors between 494 and drivers for 10k when the controller was operating at the higher voltages. Maybe not enough base current is the issue.
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by Th3_uN1Qu3; 06-17-2011, 09:50 PM.
                  Originally posted by PeteS in CA
                  Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
                  A working TV? How boring!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                    Oh man! I remember those old Deers...

                    Several 'low budget ops' with nasty old Compaq P120s thru P166s (no MMX) liked to 'upgrade' the original power supplies. As in 300 'sticker watts' was better than an honest 165W.

                    Oh 'Deer' me, they couldn't figure out why suspend to RAM never worked afterwards.

                    Then there was an evilmachines that had the mobo fried by a runaway bestec. Some horrible old proprietary hotbox, one of those 'almost-uATX' desktop cases. I had this powmax that wasn't good for anything. Hooked that up and the power and HDD LEDs would only flicker two or three times with each press of the power button. After load testing the powmax with a few 12V bulbs and resistors on +5, things started to smell real good. That had so many components with extra lead length that I don't know how the hell it didn't just short out...

                    That low budget op is/was none other than Cash Converters.

                    Those tards thought I could 'perform miracles' and they also thought they could get $350-$400 for a P166 w/o MMX, 4.3-10GB 5400 RPM HDD, 64MB EDO RAM and a corrupted 98/IE hell install. A 15" crt that was unable to do better than 800x600 at 70 Hz vertical was "included." Walk away... no, run!

                    I did score a Technics RS-M205 for thirteen bucks. These older units had the tape loop cables attached instead of having four phono jacks. Or course, the cable was broken and I 'convinced' certain people to give me a nice 'discount.' Uxwbill has the next model up, with a VFD tube for the level meters instead of two actual meters.

                    Full moon, anyone? What's the matter with people this week? So this year is different or something, or is this guy trying the "I don't have money" story hoping you'll bite? I'll bet you knew before he even opened his mouth that something was up. Your b'days are three days apart and I'll bet you had lots o' good times back in the day. So what- now it's "I'm in uni now and I can blow off my friends" cop-out? Hopefully, he'll come around, but you know him better than I. This whole "I've got new friends in uni/college now, I don't need my old friends now. I'm moving on." Yea, whatever. He'll call you at 11 at night for you to either get up or drop what you're doing to run out and help with something trivial.

                    Try 2.2K or 2.7K to maybe a 5.6K for those resistors. Try 2SC5707s or something similar for the driver transistors, if the 2222s don't cut it. Overkill, but I love it when a plan comes together.

                    Steer clear of 'fickle friends'
                    -Paul
                    Attached Files
                    "pokemon go... to hell!"

                    EOL it...
                    Originally posted by shango066
                    All style and no substance.
                    Originally posted by smashstuff30
                    guilty,guilty,guilty,guilty!
                    guilty of being cheap-made!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                      Originally posted by kaboom View Post
                      Oh man! I remember those old Deers...

                      Several 'low budget ops' with nasty old Compaq P120s thru P166s (no MMX) liked to 'upgrade' the original power supplies. As in 300 'sticker watts' was better than an honest 165W.
                      I have one of the aforementioned 165W supplies in a Compaq Deskpro 4000... and man, it's built like a tank. Huge output toroid and single transistor forward configuration with UC384x, can't remember which one. But certainly, WAY ahead of its time. All Rubycon caps. Has a 92mm Nidec fan. The mobo also takes 8 (eight) SIMMs, works with a 233MMX, and has the full upgrade pack on it - Cirrus Logic video with the memory upgrade installed, does 24-bit color at 1280x1024 IIRC. 10Mbps LAN. Both onboard. The BIOS on this thing is a stripped-down version of Win 3.1 and boots off TWO floppies in case you have wiped it off the HDD. Crazy.

                      I got it for free from my Chemistry teacher a few years back, and used it for a while when my P4 died. Did its job well. The keyboard i got with it, i still use to this day (and have washed it recently, looks like new). I'm quite fond of this machine, i still keep it in my closet even tho i have no use for it anymore.

                      Originally posted by kaboom View Post
                      After load testing the powmax with a few 12V bulbs and resistors on +5, things started to smell real good. That had so many components with extra lead length that I don't know how the hell it didn't just short out...
                      Just like Crysis. Maximum Pow.

                      Originally posted by kaboom View Post
                      Full moon, anyone? What's the matter with people this week? So this year is different or something, or is this guy trying the "I don't have money" story hoping you'll bite? I'll bet you knew before he even opened his mouth that something was up. Your b'days are three days apart and I'll bet you had lots o' good times back in the day. So what- now it's "I'm in uni now and I can blow off my friends" cop-out? Hopefully, he'll come around, but you know him better than I. This whole "I've got new friends in uni/college now, I don't need my old friends now. I'm moving on." Yea, whatever. He'll call you at 11 at night for you to either get up or drop what you're doing to run out and help with something trivial.
                      Well, we're at the same uni, in the same class... along with another classmate of ours from high school. That guy is still like he used to be just that he's got a lot of work on his hands and can't really hang out all day like he used to.

                      As for this guy? Well, i helped him pick out a new configuration last month and also helped him put it together, AND gave him a recapped Powerlink PSU to run it till he buys a proper one (he currently uses the HD4250 onboard, saving for a gfx card till winter, so no power hungry parts), and he didn't even give me a beer. Same happened when i fixed up his TV another few months back. And now the "i don't have money to celebrate our birthdays together" shit. Yea, really.

                      Originally posted by kaboom View Post
                      Try 2.2K or 2.7K to maybe a 5.6K for those resistors.
                      I dropped the 1Ks that were originally in there, the waveform is now cleaner but the transistors get toasty even faster. They're not 2Ns, they're the KSP versions, with only 400mA current, so i think that's the matter.

                      Originally posted by kaboom View Post
                      Try 2SC5707s or something similar for the driver transistors, if the 2222s don't cut it. Overkill, but I love it when a plan comes together.
                      The problem with those high current transistors is that they're either unobtanium, or don't have enough hfe. Remember, they still have to be driven by a 494 (250mA max, but i'd rather stick to 100mA). BC639s (1A continuous, 1.5A peak) are dirt cheap, i'll go out and buy a dozen of those and see what happens.
                      Originally posted by PeteS in CA
                      Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
                      A working TV? How boring!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                        Looks good. Here are some others if you want:

                        2sc3074
                        ztx851
                        ztx1051a
                        ksc2234
                        ksd1691

                        As you know, the hfe depends on the suffixes, which I left out.


                        Old Compaqs with their soft-bioses... "Why does the cursor on the left change to a blinking block in the upper right corner?"

                        Too many propeller-heads just can't get past the number on the sticker. They'd go as far as blaming DLL hell from a 3.1 to '95 upgrade, with an office/works, file&print sharing, novell fighting with IPX/SPX fighting with TCP/IP abomination thrown in, on 'that number.'

                        For example:
                        Well, it must be the power supply
                        300 'watts' are better than 165
                        It's normal to have to upgrade the power supply after xx years (often repeated here by antecpimp)
                        What bad caps? They're all the same
                        Quality low ESR caps are only a marketing gimmick
                        What are capacitors? It's just a power supply, stop analyzing too much <-best show of ignorance ever
                        We don't need to remove all that stuff in networking even though we only use TCP/IP, it's always been that way
                        "pokemon go... to hell!"

                        EOL it...
                        Originally posted by shango066
                        All style and no substance.
                        Originally posted by smashstuff30
                        guilty,guilty,guilty,guilty!
                        guilty of being cheap-made!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                          Originally posted by kaboom View Post
                          We don't need to remove all that stuff in networking even though we only use TCP/IP, it's always been that way
                          Amen to that.

                          Well, those BC639s still get hot. I series'd a 27 ohm resistor with the supply line that goes to the transformer and now the transistors are okay but instead the resistor gets very hot. It does sound like a saturating transformer, however, if i sub in one with more turns, the same happens. And i don't have room for more turns in this one... Plus the waveform isn't distorted in any way. Strange...

                          I wound more turns on the secondary than on the primary to get more gate voltage. Atm i'm getting around +/-20v out. If i can lower the primary voltage to a level that both keeps the driver transistors happy AND provides at least 10v for the mosfets, i'll be fine.
                          Originally posted by PeteS in CA
                          Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
                          A working TV? How boring!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                            Okay, this is officially out of my understanding. I can put ANY darn transformer in there and it'll just suck up a lot of juice. Even if i put a main transformer from an ATX PSU it'll still do the same thing. That transformer is meant to take 160 volts in its primary, don't tell me it saturates at 13... It'll smoke a 5W resistor put in series for f***s sake.

                            I've driven GDTs in a lot of dumb ways and they worked damn it... and now when i'm doing it right, it no worky. I'm off to do something else for a while, like patching some games to run on Windows 7. Darn SafeDisc.
                            Originally posted by PeteS in CA
                            Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
                            A working TV? How boring!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                              Adding to the list of things that go wrong: Primary transistor failed shorted base to emitter. In the base drive circuit there is a 1N4148 diode bypassing a resistor. The 1N4148 diode fails shorted. Replace it with a 1N5819. If you don't notice the shorted 1N4148 it won't take long till it claims another power transistor... i learned that the hard way.
                              Originally posted by PeteS in CA
                              Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
                              A working TV? How boring!

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                                Sorry, spoke too soon. 1N5819 is not a suitable replacement for 1N4148 in this circuit.
                                Originally posted by PeteS in CA
                                Remember that by the time consequences of a short-sighted decision are experienced, the idiot who made the bad decision may have already been promoted or moved on to a better job at another company.
                                A working TV? How boring!

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Re: Things that can go wrong when modding an ATX PSU

                                  hay, are you still there? you did great with that fucken atx, did you managed to run fets?

                                  Comment

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