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Old 07-17-2012, 06:21 AM   #21
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

lots of power supplies have > 16V caps, and most polys have really low capacitance at such high voltages. This can throw things off on power supply type circuits

we don't have to find a certain brand series, just any series that is equivalent in specs (and reliability). This is why i'm making the cap database. zeerrrg let me ask you guys a question, is M ohm ohms / 100 or 1000
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:47 AM   #22
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

M would be MEGA (one million) ... m would be milli

milli - a thousand

it's subdivisions of SI units ... 1 meter = 10 decimeters = 100 centimeters = 1000 millimeters

1 inch = ~ 2.54 cm
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:14 AM   #23
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Quote:
No, HV is miniaturized HD ...
At my, now, previous employer I compared HD with HE for a very different usage than what folks here do. I was not impressed. Then again, I was subjecting the things to 7X-10X (not a typo!) the rated ripple current, not anything like P/S or VRM usage. Generally, Nichicon PW, PA & HE, Panasonic FC & FM, Rubycon ZL, and UCC LXZ and KZE series did best in my torture test. That was over 3 years ago, BTW.
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:51 AM   #24
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS in CA View Post
At my, now, previous employer I compared HD with HE for a very different usage than what folks here do. I was not impressed. Then again, I was subjecting the things to 7X-10X (not a typo!) the rated ripple current, not anything like P/S or VRM usage. Generally, Nichicon PW, PA & HE, Panasonic FC & FM, Rubycon ZL, and UCC LXZ and KZE series did best in my torture test. That was over 3 years ago, BTW.
Did anything blowup in your torture test? And how did you torture them?

Its a shame that they are discontinuing them.
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Quote:
At my, now, previous employer I compared HD with HE for a very different usage than what folks here do. I was not impressed. Then again, I was subjecting the things to 7X-10X (not a typo!) the rated ripple current, not anything like P/S or VRM usage. Generally, Nichicon PW, PA & HE, Panasonic FC & FM, Rubycon ZL, and UCC LXZ and KZE series did best in my torture test. That was over 3 years ago, BTW.
Pete, are you sure you are recalling the results of your tests correctly??? HD should be precisely equal in spec to ZL, KZE and FM... I am very surprised at what you're saying. Are you suggesting that HD is a dud series??? I find this difficult to believe, as it has a proven track record.

I'm not familiar with Nichicon PA, it's probably a discontinued series, but PW is equivalent to Panasonic FC and UCC LXZ... These are refered to as "borderline" low-ESR caps... HE is a step up between HD/FM/ZL and and the borderline low-ESR series of caps... UCC has an equivalent series - "KY". These are both proven series with good track records, but not as impressive in spec as Nichicon HD!
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post

I'm not familiar with Nichicon PA, it's probably a discontinued series
PA appears to not be discontinued. And it has lower ESR than PW.
But looks like the ESR is still too high for motherboards, at least for many motherboards.
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:20 PM   #27
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

You're right, I just pulled the spec sheet off their site.

It's very close to Nichicon HE:

6.3v 2200uF 10x25mm
Nichicon PA:1680 0.033
Nichicon HE:1650 0.042
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:22 PM   #28
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
You're right, I just pulled the spec sheet off their site.

It's very close to Nichicon HE:

6.3v 2200uF 10x25mm
Nichicon PA:1680 0.033
Nichicon HE:1650 0.042
Think the ESR is still too high for motherboards?
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Old 07-17-2012, 01:28 PM   #29
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Motherboard grade caps and regular low-ESR caps are in two completely different classes.

Ultra low-ESR caps have a unique electrolyte, there's probably some really expensive element in it that drastically changes and improves its properties compared to ordinary caps... Look at any ordinary cap and then look at it's motherboard-grade series equivalent. The ripple rating is often drastically higher and the ESR always far far lower, and all this with often significantly lesser dimensions!
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:28 PM   #30
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

My memory is OK mm, though I appreciate your concer . The torture was the extreme ripple current at which I ran the things - 7-10X the rated ripple ccurrent, ~22 hours a day, 7 days a week until the things vented (or as happened with a couple of 12.5mm diameter parts, the lead wires fused). Evidently, when you go that far beyond the ripple current rating, the ESR is not the critical factor in how long they lasted. What is, I'm not sure. It's worth noting that all of the series that did well, relatively,nwere 5000 and 10000 hour rated series. Nichicon HD, UCC KZG and KZH, and Rubycon YXG and YXH did poorly.

Nichicon P* and H* series have different electrolyte types; ditto UCC LX* vs. KZ*; ditto Panasonic FC vs. FM. Rubycon is "all in" with the electrolyte type used in H*, KZ* and FM where low Z caps are concerned.
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:33 PM   #31
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

If you need a useless fact to complete your day, there was a Nichicon PA series back ca. 1980. It was, for the time, a low ESR series, matching against UCC's RX series and Sprague's 672D series. The current PA series came out, IIRC, in 2008.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:44 PM   #32
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Quote:
Nichicon HD, UCC KZG and KZH, and Rubycon YXG and YXH did poorly.
Fascinating...

I'm not surprised with KZG and YXG/YXH. KZG is known to use an inadequate electrolyte and YXG/YXH have a mediocre spec. I'm curious about KZH but I'm seriously puzzled with HD which is spec for spec identical at least in classification to KZE yet you say KZE outlasted HD in the torture test. Care to speculate? Also, may I ask where you sourced your KZH? I've not seen that stocked anywhere (Or Nichicon PA for that matter).
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:57 PM   #33
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shocker View Post
By the way, the table says you replaced the 220µF 16V RLS on the -12V with 330µF 6.3V SEPs.
That was a mistake. I have fixed it. If you look at the picture, you can see that the SEP next to the blue (-12V) wire is 16V
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:05 PM   #34
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
Fascinating...

I'm not surprised with KZG and YXG/YXH. KZG is known to use an inadequate electrolyte and YXG/YXH have a mediocre spec. I'm curious about KZH but I'm seriously puzzled with HD which is spec for spec identical at least in classification to KZE yet you say KZE outlasted HD in the torture test. Care to speculate? Also, may I ask where you sourced your KZH? I've not seen that stocked anywhere (Or Nichicon PA for that matter).
Keep in mind he's talking about particular tests, done with 7-10x the ripple the caps are rated for.

He's not talking about performance of the capacitors at the rated specs so you can't form an overall conclusion about them.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:02 AM   #35
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

Here is what I got from my contact at Nichicon:

The main reason is that all our comp has already decided to discontinue water base series and now their customer are searching for another supplier

We will not accept orders in those 2 series . The only water base parts we will still manufacture HD and HE series.

Thanks

Rick Massett
Nichicon (America) Corporation
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:13 AM   #36
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

I hope this doesn't put Topcat out of buisiness. This really sucks.
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:55 AM   #37
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

It's not looking good....but we'll see what transpires... I could always continue on with Panasonic from digikey or mouser....but I'd no longer be able to remain competitive....so yea, that's not a good choice either. Panasonic wouldn't even talk to me, I tried back when Rubycon dumped MBZ and MCZ.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:14 PM   #38
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

My employer at that time was a noticeable share of Nichicon's North American sales. We had Nichicon people coming to us from their main office in IL. Ditto for UCC. Rubycon had a local sales guy; Panasonic was rep'ed by a Mfr's Rep outfit. So, except for Panasonic, samples for my testing came directly from the companies.

TCKTMB's contact's info is less than clear to me. I wonder if the meaning is that MB mfrs and computer companies are switching to polymer caps. If that is what's happening, look for similar moves from UCC and Panasonic. And if that's what is happening, then people who do repairs on "older" equipment are going to be in some difficulty.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:34 PM   #39
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

FWIW, if this does kill off badcaps.net, it won't be for a while. I have a decent stash right now, and in conjunction with a good friend of mine, we're working to put in an emergency order before they stop production....just hoping they accept the order. April 2013 will be the official 10 year anniversary of Badcaps.net. The business was started in 2001, but I registered the domain name in April 2003. That's a pretty good run for any small business! ...and if the business dies or I sell it, fear not, the forum will ALWAYS remain!
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:14 PM   #40
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Default Re: Nichicon HM/HN/HZ scheduled for discontinuation

@ Topcat, have you tried sourcing Sanyo/Suncon WG caps?

My concern with using Pannies from Digikey or Mouser is that they don't sell the FJ series (which is equivilant to Nich HM and Ruby MCZ), so they may not be a suitable replacement for all boards. In any case, though, you would still be competitive enough for international orders, as Digikey and mouser charge $50 or so for overseas shipping bs $8 from here.
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