Building a gaming rig for my dad...

[Retrorockit]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

For 2x CPU Westmeres I would go with the X5687 4 core/8thread versions.
IDK if TS can handle 2x CPU at once. 8 threads isn't a problem. But Turbo speed on all cores would be 3.89Ghz.
The Dell T5500 is the same midtower size as the T3500. So it doesn't have to be a behemoth.
But the favorite for this is the Dell T3500 with unlocked Xeon X3680 TS overclocked to 4.1GHz. and 3 channel ddr3 1333.
Here are few at the top of the T3500 chart at userbenchmark.com
https://www.userbenchmark.com/System...n-T3500--/2522
Here's a TPU thread on this.
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/t...op-pcs.235975/

[momaka]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Sure, in novabench the dual hex-core westemeres won, but in Catzilla (physics test), it was no contest (and having watched both of them run, the proof is in the pudding indeed!). Since Catzilla supposedly is based on gaming algorithms, for what my dad is doing, I'll give the win to Ryzen.

IDK, I still hate relying on these synthetic benchmarks for any kind of meaningful performance comparisons, especially with gaming.

For example, many older console ports (and really, almost all games are these days) build for the Xbox One / PS5 are optimized (if not limited) to use no more than 4-8 cores. Thus, having more cores and threads does noting for these games. Fortnite is one good example of that - it won't go past 8 threads and will do much nicer on fewer cores with high IPC count and high frequency than many (more than 8) cores with lower IPC / running frequency. On the other hand, Doom Eternal (or whatever the last installment is called, I forget) will scale up and split the load nicely on as many cores as there are available. Thus, a dual Westmere setup here might actually end with nearly equal performance to the Ryzen (or maybe slightly better with the really fast Westmeres.) And I think CoD Warzone is in a similar boat. In fact, Warzone needs at least 6-8 fast cores (not threads) to run well. So most older 4-core i5's will not do well with it, despite probably also likely being able to get higher "physics" scores on Catzilla than the Xeon Westmeres.

So at the end of the day, these benchmarks are nothing more than a rough "feeler". But I think you did make the right choice with the Ryzen, as it's a pretty efficient CPU at 65W TDP (probably about 80-100W under max load.) At least for your dad, it probably makes much more sense to have a rig like that than a big multi-CPU behemoth. And the Ryzen CPU supports newer instruction sets too, so from a "futureproofing" perspective (at least for gaming), it again makes more sense.

[ratdude747]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

A dual-CPU Xeon setup with 2x mid-range Westmere 6-core CPUs will come somewhat close to this chip, but still not top it.

I have one of those!

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=64744




Ignore the crappy GPU score above. It's a Novabench glitch.

Sure, in novabench the dual hex-core westemeres won, but in Catzilla (physics test), it was no contest (and having watched both of them run, the proof is in the pudding indeed!). Since Catzilla supposedly is based on gaming algorithms, for what my dad is doing, I'll give the win to Ryzen.

[momaka]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Poked around good old CL (which I forgot was still a thing), and among other "interesting" finds, I found this:

https://cincinnati.craigslist.org/sy...296992170.html

Not bad at all, especially considering the current situation with silicon shortages and whatnot. In fact, even those 1st gen Ryzen chips are very good performers. According to some tests I've looked up, it will stomp 6th and 7th gen i5 chips, and even better than most 7/8th gen i7s, IIRC. A dual-CPU Xeon setup with 2x mid-range Westmere 6-core CPUs will come somewhat close to this chip, but still not top it. So it's definitely good performance for the money there.

With the GTX 1060, that should be pretty decent rig even today. Heck, you dad may be able to play even some of the latest AAA titles with lower settings, if he ever decided to go that route.

The 600W PSU is probably overkill... but I guess it doesn't hurt to have it anyways. Otherwise, a system like that would happily run on a 350-watter, provided it's a modern(ish) PSU that has at least 22-24 Amps available on the 12V rail.

[ratdude747]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

what specific chipset?

Yup. The intel 300 series has no USB drivers for win7.

200 series you could nlite slipstream them, but they don't literally exist for win7

If it has a PC slot you could always put a USB card in and if it has native 7 support it should work for install (you could also slipstream those drivers with Nlite). Or if you have a PS/2 port, you can always keyboard navigate through setup and *cough* activation. Some Bios's have the ability to switch from xhci to ehci

You could use the seven *cough* -> 10 activation once you have a network connection.

Which is what I was trying to do... miss the "7 as part of the road to 10" comment?

Turns out AsRock had a .iso patcher for this... which I didnt' figure out until dicking with it for 3 hours (had installed with a PS/2 mouse/kb and a jerry rigged SATA DVD drive, but didn't work out).

Installed and working. I have pics for later (too late, gotta drive home and get a bit of sleep before work). But I did benchmark the final setup. See attached.

[Uranium-235]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Quickly learning how USB support for windows 7 on these things is non-existent. Since it's a 300 series chipset, supposedly Crimson drivers will work. trying that... if not, I dunno.

what specific chipset?

Yup. The intel 300 series has no USB drivers for win7.

200 series you could nlite slipstream them, but they don't literally exist for win7

If it has a PC slot you could always put a USB card in and if it has native 7 support it should work for install (you could also slipstream those drivers with Nlite). Or if you have a PS/2 port, you can always keyboard navigate through setup and *cough* activation. Some Bios's have the ability to switch from xhci to ehci

You could use the seven *cough* -> 10 activation once you have a network connection.

[ratdude747]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Bought. Working on getting windows 7 to install (on the path to getting windows 10 running). AHCI driver bull puckey kicking my ass, but the system runs. edit- it's a USB3.0 driver issue... i'm sure AHCI is part of it too, but being a relative noob to newer systems, I haven't had this before.

The PSU is better than advertised. 600W, I think it's a corsair?

Quickly learning how USB support for windows 7 on these things is non-existent. Since it's a 300 series chipset, supposedly Crimson drivers will work. trying that... if not, I dunno.

[ratdude747]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Bought. Working on getting windows 7 to install (on the path to getting windows 10 running). AHCI driver bull puckey kicking my ass, but the system runs. edit- it's a USB3.0 driver issue... i'm sure AHCI is part of it too, but being a relative noob to newer systems, I haven't had this before.

The PSU is better than advertised. 600W, I think it's a corsair?

[ratdude747]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Poked around good old CL (which I forgot was still a thing), and among other "interesting" finds, I found this:

https://cincinnati.craigslist.org/sy...296992170.html

Which is:

Ryzen 1600 with an evo 212 cooler
16gigs ddr3 @ 2133mhz
Gigabyte ab350m motherboard
Fractal meshify c case
550 Corsair psu

That's actually a DDR4 board (and an ASrock one... both made a board with that model number for such a platform)... typo?

Shot the guy an offer... more or less precisely what I've been looking for. Edit- Agreed to $225, picking it up tomorrow as part of my Easter plans... I guess this will be an Easter gift for my dad, who I was planning to see anyway!

[eccerr0r]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Big capacity modules are and always have been expensive, unless they are too old and are considered as scrap value (currently, that would be DDR, and for the most part DDR2 modules too.) DDR3 isn't quite there yet, so that's why 4 GB, 8 GB, and 16 GB modules still cost a bit.

It's unfortunate this is the case. However seems 4G modules...

In fact, I just drove out a few miles out of my way yesterday to buy some DDR3 4 GB modules from a guy on Craigslist, because he was selling two kits (2x 4GB per kit, so 8 GB total) for $10 each - cheaper than current eBay prices, even. I only bought one of them, though. Probably should have gotten both, but I don't have that many DDR3 boards (yet).

... are not worth as much it seems, and 8's are a significant price step above 4's, almost a 40% price premium!

Well, yes, same problem, I have two DDR3 machines - one of which is a laptop, other is a desktop. And well, I don't want to be stuck with a whole bunch of 2GB modules as I don't have enough machines to downfill. Currently have two 4's and two empty, and would like to get to 16GB and to keep options open, getting a single 8 sounds like the best plan for me so I could get to 24G later without disposing of modules -- but holy crap, so not worth it. *sigh*

As for the laptop I have a 4 and an 8 DDR3. They refuse to work together, machine does not report the correct memory and is unstable with them both installed! *sigh* I can only use one or the other, so of course I'm using the sole 8. Wish I could do something with the 4.

DDR2 I still have downfill machines that have empty slots or 512M and 1G modules. Unfortunately the 512M modules will end up having to be scrap... including one that probably is already scrap as it causes any machine with it installed to no longer boot...

[Uranium-235]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

jeez this doesn't take much thought. I mean, I only read through some of it till you got off topic or to crazier related side topics

get a matx case ($49) with 3.0 ports, matx board MSI I usually like. (https://www.newegg.com/msi-a520m-pro/p/N82E16813144365) , F series intel chip or a 3000 series ryzen and an ssd. You don't have to take PSU's apart, or get used parts. You're turning this into a challenge when it doesn't have to be. I know how you love challenges but turning this into a workstation is suboptimal for gaming.

If he has the money, just put something new together. Taking freaking used SM workstations and server components just defeats the idea of a 'gaming rig'

Intel
i5-10400F
MSI H510M PRO
New Ram
new PSU (decent quality). There ya go

nice, fast, up to date

[momaka]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

dammit, was thinking about getting it but someone else bought it.

I'll let you know if I find something else then... whenever I do my eBay hunting next time, that is, which I don't know when it will be (a lot of times, I like to do it for fun, even when I know I won't be buying anything, lol.)

Alas I really don't want more 2GB DDR3 modules... but buying a single 8G DDR3 seems so not worth it compared to the 12GB in that board...

Big capacity modules are and always have been expensive, unless they are too old and are considered as scrap value (currently, that would be DDR, and for the most part DDR2 modules too.) DDR3 isn't quite there yet, so that's why 4 GB, 8 GB, and 16 GB modules still cost a bit. In fact, I just drove out a few miles out of my way yesterday to buy some DDR3 4 GB modules from a guy on Craigslist, because he was selling two kits (2x 4GB per kit, so 8 GB total) for $10 each - cheaper than current eBay prices, even. I only bought one of them, though. Probably should have gotten both, but I don't have that many DDR3 boards (yet).

So the nice thing about those 2 GB DDR3 modules is they are more widely available due to their lower capacity - especially registered server RAM, since no one wants the low cap. modules there, lol. And this is where socket 1366 and 2011 shine, because you get 6, 8, 12, or 16 RAM slots instead of just 4 on a regular desktop ATX mobo. Fill them all in with low-cap. modules and you still get a silly amount of RAM (for desktop use anyways.)

You missed the point. Right now I have a two USB 2.0 header connectors and one USB 3.0 header connector... which if I run an adapter, results in three headers serving 4 ports. Which IMHO is dumb. Also, the USB 3.0 solution they used is physically weak and already loose (and ripping traces off the board)... I all I have to do to convert it to USB 2.0 is desolder two tabs and clear the holes. I'll get pics after work.

Well, you do have the case, so of course you have to decide what makes sense to do and what doesn't. I was just throwing some options/suggestions out there.

[ratdude747]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Interesting.
Usually the newer cheapo cases get that right, whereas the old one had problems... but I guess that goes to show you never know what you'll get with cheap cases.

Yeah, making sure the USB ports work right is a good idea.

Also, instead of removing the USB 3.0 ports, you can just get one of those USB 3.0 to 2.0 adapters. Less work and you will still have the option of USB 3, should you ever put a new enough motherboard in that case that has USB 3.0 headers.

You missed the point. Right now I have a two USB 2.0 header connectors and one USB 3.0 header connector... which if I run an adapter, results in three headers serving 4 ports. Which IMHO is dumb. Also, the USB 3.0 solution they used is physically weak and already loose (and ripping traces off the board)... I all I have to do to convert it to USB 2.0 is desolder two tabs and clear the holes. I'll get pics after work.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

dammit, was thinking about getting it but someone else bought it. Alas I really don't want more 2GB DDR3 modules... but buying a single 8G DDR3 seems so not worth it compared to the 12GB in that board...

[momaka]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Preaching to the choir... If Topcat is the king of SM, I'm likely one of his princes. I have 5 SM based systems running with 4 more decommissioned.

I guess I can add a bit more fuel to that fire too.

Not sure if you're looking for a (yet another SuperMicro) motherboard, but I found this on eBay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPERMICRO-.../265093521657?
...
^ Nothing crazy... but for $50 shipped, you get 12 GB of registered RAM, a 1366 Xeon X3460 (so more or less equivalent to a 1st gen i7) and a working ATX mobo... so maybe a decent starter system? With that 1060, it should be a pretty OK match... or perhaps you may have to swap the CPU for a more powerful one if it bottlenecks the system (which it might). My guess is something like a high-end 6-core Westmere will do well enough.

[RJARRRPCGP]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Noname PSU tag (sorry for crap focus, this Nikon is putting the POS in Point and Shoot):



450W my ass :



Board says it's made by Yuelin. Very lightweight, a true gutless wonder!

That PSU, even the cover printing, makes me barf!

[momaka]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Actually, on further inspection, the AZZA's USB situation is worse that the other case (which did have actual USB rated cables!).

Interesting.
Usually the newer cheapo cases get that right, whereas the old one had problems... but I guess that goes to show you never know what you'll get with cheap cases.

Yeah, making sure the USB ports work right is a good idea.

Also, instead of removing the USB 3.0 ports, you can just get one of those USB 3.0 to 2.0 adapters. Less work and you will still have the option of USB 3, should you ever put a new enough motherboard in that case that has USB 3.0 headers.

[ratdude747]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Agreed.

Despite not liking the thin steel and styling of that Azza-tek case, it does have more features suited for a modern PC, like better ventilation, more cable management provisions (not a big deal IMO, but still good to have), and I'm sure properly-working front USB ports - again, something that I find a lot of old cheap cases had problems with. And in this day and age, non-working or finicky USB ports is a big let-down... which is why I think even the really cheap cases nowadays make sure to get that right, as no one likes it when their USB ports don't work right.

Steel wise, the cases are equal. Both are on the thinner side of adequate.

Actually, on further inspection, the AZZA's USB situation is worse that the other case (which did have actual USB rated cables!).

Of the four top USB ports, three are USB2.0 fed by some sketch looking cables (no shield!), and one is some weird single USB3.0 header and cable all molded together with two solder tabs to hold it to the board (which are already failing and loose).

What I'd like to do is replace the 3.0 port with a 2.0 (the traces and pads are there), and replace all four port's worth of cables with shielded cables rated for such use. Overkill perhaps, but it's a relatively easy fix. I even have new USB jacks leftover from another project.

[momaka]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

If I reuse either case for this thread's build, I think the Azza case wins due to being better suited for a newer system. The other case is a relic of it's time...

Agreed.

Despite not liking the thin steel and styling of that Azza-tek case, it does have more features suited for a modern PC, like better ventilation, more cable management provisions (not a big deal IMO, but still good to have), and I'm sure properly-working front USB ports - again, something that I find a lot of old cheap cases had problems with. And in this day and age, non-working or finicky USB ports is a big let-down... which is why I think even the really cheap cases nowadays make sure to get that right, as no one likes it when their USB ports don't work right.

The geforce 730 was an attempt to get something that would have a working windows 10 driver, which the onboard 965 GPU does not.

Understood and not criticizing you for it.
I'm just pointing out that it's a weak video card, despite being newer.

Seems half-height GPUs went the way of the dodo on a lot of newer stuff due to onboard GPUs becoming decent.

Probably.

And even back when half-height GPUs were more popular, hardly anything existed that was better than lower-mid-range cards. IIRC, the best you could get was HD4650/5570/6570/7570 or 6670/7670 if you were very lucky. Not sure what nVidia had on their side, but it probably wasn't much better. Now way way back, they did have a 9800GT PE (Power-Efficient) edition for half-height... but good luck finding those, especially working ones. Despite being power-efficient and putting out less heat, they still overheated themselves to death.

... And that's the major limitation of half-height card: TDP

Moreover, it looks like overall GPU TDP hass been back on the rise again with the last few generations of cards. The GTX 10x0 series were actually the first (in a long time) to bring back down the overall TDP significantly to more normal levels. But modern games are putting more and more "importance" on graphics than anything else, so the RTX20x0 line brought back the TDP up... and the latest GTX3080/3090 and equivalent Radeons are just silly, IMO. I mean what's next, 1 KW TDP GPUs?

At that pace, decent-performing half-height cards will probably never come back.

Then again... even when they existed, it was still just for a niche market. Not many people try to build a gaming rig out of an SFF or USFF - and it doesn't really make sense anyways.

[ratdude747]

Re: Building a gaming rig for my dad...

Did some more looking at the father inlaw case.

The construction isn't as bad as I initially thought. The PSU may be junk, but the case is decently thick steel (nothing really nice, but it doesn't really have the "pop can effect" really bad ones are known for).

The power and reset buttons are illuminated separate from the power and HDD lights. They're blue. The side panel fan and the front strips are red, though. Weird combo...

If I reuse either case for this thread's build, I think the Azza case wins due to being better suited for a newer system. The other case is a relic of it's time, and would be better suited for a more period correct/style build (perhaps a 4x velociraptor array, or the like).