Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Okay, so the BIOS reports might not be correct. That would make sense. We were looking at how the fans are being powered. It's just a basic circuit board with nothing but traces. The header that connects to the video card powers one fan and then the traces go to that header to the other fan. We were thinking maybe the current wasn't enough and the fans weren't kicking on when they were supposed to be. To clarify, we were thinking if there was only one fan, when the AMD CC was reporting 1,200 RPM or 20% fan speed, that one fan would be running at around 1,200 RPM, but because there's two fans, neither spin at all until around 1,700 RPM.

I think that VBIOS update returns the video card to the old way of doing it, where instead of turning the fans on once they hit a certain temp, they're always running, just a bit slower. When the temps do hit a certain temp, the fans definitely spin up, so I think it might be working the way it's supposed to, after reading what you just wrote.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

The BIOS reports are sometimes fudged - they don't always bother updating the BIOS reporting to reflect the changes in hardware. Also, for a good monitoring program, try HWINFO32/64.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Very bad idea, except if you know what you are doing...

The Afterburner can fuck up everything - yes, also the fan controller. And cause you more problems than it's worth...

The fan itself can be controlled within the AMD control panel/Radeon Settings: Games -> Global Settings -> Overdrive.
There you can also monitor the card...

nVidia had something similar years ago but they removed this out of the driver package. And I wouldn't trust them further than I can throw that leather jacket...


Yes, that would possibly break the card.
Because different Voltage Controllers...

But aren't there BIOS editors that work for Tonga??

AMD is weird in this area. Sometimes they allow the BIOS to be edited, sometimes they don't...


Semi Fanless for the Win!!

You find that bullshit everywhere these days...
Power Supplys started this (Seasonic and Corsair)...
And now even some reviewers criticise an 80plus Gold (or better) PSU if it doesn't have a semi fanless mode...

As someone from some PSU Company once said:
We don't need quality fans, we have Semi Fanless!!!
And good quality fans are expansive as hell...
Shit fans cost next to nothing...

This semi fanless thing doesn't seem right. I understand the concept I believe, but this is the way I understand it:

There's something called Intelligent Fan Control II. This is what controls the fan speeds. It essentially says something stupid like if the GPU temp isn't 76 degrees C, don't turn on the fans (something along those lines). We can use an editor (even a hex editor I guess) to change the target GPU temperature from 76 degrees C to something lower. But I don't understand why the video card itself reports the fan are spinning at 20% (1,200 RPM) when they're not at all. If the temp is under 76C, should the video card report the fans spinning at 0% (0 RPM)?

And yes, there are editors for this BIOS. I also found a newer BIOS (same version as the MSI). I was just curious as to what would happen. I wasn't sure what the differences, hardware wise, where. Thanks for explaining that to me!

The latest VBIOS I found for this card is 015.049.000.009.000000. His video card is currently running 015.049.000.000.000000. I just can't find a changelog anywheres. I don't get what the 015.049.000.009 update fixes. I've been reading a long forum and it might have something to do with the fans, but it also might have something to do with allowing higher voltages for overclocking.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Perhaps MSI Afterburner

Very bad idea, except if you know what you are doing...

The Afterburner can fuck up everything - yes, also the fan controller. And cause you more problems than it's worth...

The fan itself can be controlled within the AMD control panel/Radeon Settings: Games -> Global Settings -> Overdrive.
There you can also monitor the card...

nVidia had something similar years ago but they removed this out of the driver package. And I wouldn't trust them further than I can throw that leather jacket...

Out of curiosity, what would happen if I downloaded the MSI BIOS for the R9 380 4GB video card and flash it on this PowerColor R9 380 video card? The RAM on both cards is Hynix...Would that break everything and be a stupid idea?

Yes, that would possibly break the card.
Because different Voltage Controllers...

But aren't there BIOS editors that work for Tonga??

AMD is weird in this area. Sometimes they allow the BIOS to be edited, sometimes they don't...

I thought it was a little odd though that GPU-Z (and the AMD control catalyst) reported the fan speed percentage at 20% but the fans weren't spinning. The AMD CC reported the fans spinning at 1,200 RPM. Even when we set it to manual, they didn't actually start to spin until we set it to around 1,700RPM.

Semi Fanless for the Win!!

You find that bullshit everywhere these days...
Power Supplys started this (Seasonic and Corsair)...
And now even some reviewers criticise an 80plus Gold (or better) PSU if it doesn't have a semi fanless mode...

As someone from some PSU Company once said:
We don't need quality fans, we have Semi Fanless!!!
And good quality fans are expansive as hell...
Shit fans cost next to nothing...

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Out of curiosity, what would happen if I downloaded the MSI BIOS for the R9 380 4GB video card and flash it on this PowerColor R9 380 video card? The RAM on both cards is Hynix...Would that break everything and be a stupid idea?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

I just wanted to say that the video card issue I think is resolved. We installed official AMD drivers (17.4.4). The latest ones wouldn't install properly but I think they were beta. We watched the temp with GPU-Z. It was stable at 45C ~ 48C. GPU-Z showed the fan speed percentage at 20% but the RPMs at 0. We downloaded Furmark and stress tested it. The GPU reached a max temperature of 81C and the fan speed 64%, but was stable.

He is using an official paid-for copy of Windows 10, it was not pirated. He's going to format, reinstall, and use the AMD drivers I downloaded. If the PC still hangs, we're going to start testing RAM and maybe solid state. I don't think Furmark had an option to test the RAM on the video card and with a game, I'm sure it could use more of the video cards RAM than Furmark was using.

I thought it was a little odd though that GPU-Z (and the AMD control catalyst) reported the fan speed percentage at 20% but the fans weren't spinning. The AMD CC reported the fans spinning at 1,200 RPM. Even when we set it to manual, they didn't actually start to spin until we set it to around 1,700RPM.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

It is absolutely possible for a card that is poorly designed or with a manufacturing/driver/firmware (since so much is controlled with the driver/firmware) flaw to overload, example the early RX480s were known to draw over 75W from the PCIe slot and fry the slot until AMD released a driver update to fix the issue:
https://www.eteknix.com/amd-radeon-r...ng-pcie-slots/
http://www.pcworld.com/article/30911...nsumption.html

Well, yeah, that makes sense to me now that I know there's no limiters on the current for the PCI-E slots. Originally, my train of thought was there was a limiter and they wouldn't provide more than 75 watts of power. Not that they could provide more and burn out the traces or the connector.

With a limiter though, let's say something is limited the wattage to 75 watts and a device tries to draw 150 watts. Nothing will burn out, right? The device just won't operate properly or at all, right? That's how I understood it to work.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Alright, so we install Windows 10, verified fresh, clean, unmodified edition. We just picked the username and are configuring the options, haven't actually logged in yet or installed official video drivers.

We're looking at the R9 380 fans. First one kicks on for maybe 5 seconds, turns off. Second one kicks on for maybe 5 seconds, kicks off, first one kicks on for maybe 5 seconds, turns off. Second one kicks on for maybe 5 seconds, turns off. And it just repeats like this the whole time.

Maybe it's not gotten hot enough yet? Maybe this is a clue as to what's wrong?? I dunno. What do you guys think?

[dmill89]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

This doesn't make sense to me. I was under the impression that the PCI-E slot could only provide a maximum of 75 watt. I wasn't under the impression that it could draw more current and get damaged if a device required more current. Is this what you're saying? I was also under the impression that if a device required something like 10 amps but was only getting 5 amps, it simply wouldn't work, not that it'd get damaged. Is this not true?

Thanks

It is absolutely possible for a card that is poorly designed or with a manufacturing/driver/firmware (since so much is controlled with the driver/firmware) flaw to overload, example the early RX480s were known to draw over 75W from the PCIe slot and fry the slot until AMD released a driver update to fix the issue:
https://www.eteknix.com/amd-radeon-r...ng-pcie-slots/
http://www.pcworld.com/article/30911...nsumption.html

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

I got the computer back now, so I'm going to find another hard drive around here somewhere and install 10 on it. He said he was never able to remove the original AMD drivers. The card is made by some company named PowerColor.

He originally tried the official AMD drivers, said it locked up all the time, without even having to go into a game. He started reading on the net and everyone said they had to use the official PowerColor drivers, which weren't updated in a long time. That helped he said but would still overheat when he went into games. From what I've seen, it overheats regardless, just quicker when he's doing graphic intensive stuff. The fans just don't ramp up. Now that I have it back though, I can play around and try to confirm software vs hardware issue.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Per Hansson,

Okay, that makes sense. I thought there was something that limited the current to 75 watts.

But what Stj says, that doesn't make sense to me. If the house is rated for 25kW and I have a bulb that's rated for 5kW, if I plug that bulb into a socket that's rated for 5kW or higher, I don't see how that would burn anything up, regardless of what the house is rated for. If the house is rated for under 5kW, the bulb would just draw whatever it could. If it was rated for more than 5kW, the bulb would just draw the 5kW.

If the bulb is rated for 60 watts and let's say the socket is rated for 60 watts, but the house is only providing 40 watts....I don't see how or why the socket would burn out. The bulb I would think would just draw 40 watts of current. Now if the house was rated at something like 120 watts, the socket 40 watts, and the bulb rated at 60 watts, without a limiter, I could see how it could burn out. Here, the light fixtures we buy (for the house, ie, the ceiling fans with the lights) all have limiters that prevent the us from using bulbs that draw more current than what the fixture is rated for.

[Per Hansson]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

Spork: the PSU can deliver what the label says (if it's a honest PSU).
The garphic card will draw whatever it's TDP is.

But the weak link is the copper traces on the mainboard, and the PCIe connector.
They can not handle more than 75w, but there is no monitoring.
And nothing to limit the current to 75w...

[stj]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

if the light bulb is rated at 5Kw and your house is 25Kw capable your lamp socket will heat up and burn.

weakest point and all that!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

pull too much current and you burn the connector and board.

i remember when video cards started getting big, some boards openly warned to only put the gfx in a specific slot.

Is this just for PCs? I thought it was physically impossible to pull more current than what the power source was providing. For example, if a light bulb is 60 watts, it can never draw more than 60 watts. If the power supply to the light bulb only provides 40 watts, that light bulb will only receive 40 watts, even if it's trying to consume 60 watts.

How can it be different with the PCI-E slots? Is the 75 watts just a safe limit that they say the slots can physically handle but they're really capable of providing more? Just not safe like? This is what's confusing me.

We tried using two 6-pin connectors with that fancier video card I loaned Josh in one guys computer because he didn't have the 8-pin. That fancier video card (the MSI nVidia one) uses an 8-pin and a 6-pin adapter. When we turned it on, the BIOS on the video card yelled at us and refused to let the computer start, saying it required an 8-pin adapter. I believe there's a sense wire there.

[stj]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

pull too much current and you burn the connector and board.

i remember when video cards started getting big, some boards openly warned to only put the gfx in a specific slot.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

SpeedFan is better-suited towards older hardware. I've also had it not read temperatures correctly on newer hardware.

It's not just SpeedFan though that's reporting the wrong temps. There was a program from the manufacturer of the board as well showing the same temps for the CPU (3C). I figured the motherboard manufacturer would known how to read their sensors. I thought maybe it was a conflict between the three temp programs he had on there. When I say temp programs, I really mean temperature monitoring programs and / or fan speed reading / control programs.

You should try a different program. Also, give Aida64 a try - you can use it to stress test the CPU and read its temperature (similar to OCCT). The only thing I like about Aida64 is that it also shows you if the CPU starts throttling down due to heat.

Yesterday, he was a no show, but got a hold of me and said he'd try to bring the PC back today sometime around noon. So I can try Aida64 and GPU-Z. But first I'm going to try reinstalling the OS on a separate hard drive, just to rule out software issues.

If the GPU TDP is over 70 Watts, then separation of the PCI-E slot power and 6/8-pin PCI-E power connector is guaranteed. Reason being is that the PCI-E slot should not be loaded with more than 75 Watts of power, due to the load limit of the PCI-E pins. As such, if you have a 100 Watt TDP GPU, for example, and its PCI-E power is not separated from the 6/8-pin connector... then if someone forgets to plug in the 6/8-pin connector power, the GPU will try to pull all of the power from the PCI-E slot, and that could damage it.

This doesn't make sense to me. I was under the impression that the PCI-E slot could only provide a maximum of 75 watt. I wasn't under the impression that it could draw more current and get damaged if a device required more current. Is this what you're saying? I was also under the impression that if a device required something like 10 amps but was only getting 5 amps, it simply wouldn't work, not that it'd get damaged. Is this not true?

Thanks

[momaka]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

He installed temperature monitoring programs to try and see what was happening, but they're not properly reading the sensor data for one reason or another.

I thought this was the problem. I thought the programs like SpeedFan were incorrectly reading the sensor data and, thinking the temps were much lower than they were, were limiting the speed of the fan. But they seem to read the GPU just fine, it's just the CPU they seem to think is around 3C (with a good pump) or so.

SpeedFan is better-suited towards older hardware. I've also had it not read temperatures correctly on newer hardware.

You should try a different program. Also, give Aida64 a try - you can use it to stress test the CPU and read its temperature (similar to OCCT). The only thing I like about Aida64 is that it also shows you if the CPU starts throttling down due to heat.

So the fans get their power from the PCIe slots, not from those PCI-E power wires from the power supply?

Yes, always.

At least I have not see a video card that doesn't do that.

I thought there was segregation between that power, from what I've read. Even though, there doesn't need to be (they all share a common ground), I was reading a post about it saying the video cards they checked had it segregated. They called them districts.

If the GPU TDP is over 70 Watts, then separation of the PCI-E slot power and 6/8-pin PCI-E power connector is guaranteed. Reason being is that the PCI-E slot should not be loaded with more than 75 Watts of power, due to the load limit of the PCI-E pins. As such, if you have a 100 Watt TDP GPU, for example, and its PCI-E power is not separated from the 6/8-pin connector... then if someone forgets to plug in the 6/8-pin connector power, the GPU will try to pull all of the power from the PCI-E slot, and that could damage it.

So for high-power video cards, separation is guaranteed. For lower power video cards, there may not be separation. My XFX GeForce 6800 XT PCI-E card is like that. I know, because one time I forgot to plug in the Molex connector on it. But it still worked fine, even in games (under load). Being a 40-50 Watt TDP card, it didn't damage anything in the PCI-E.

That said, some video cards may have TDP lower than 75 Watts but still have a 6-pin PCI-E power connector. For those, separation may or may not exist, as is the case with my XFX GeForce 6800 XT.

I once had a 7900GT (if I remember right) where I had to update the BIOS to get decent fan control, the original had it running way too hot.

Actually found the old e-mail...

Ha!
I wonder how many GeForce 7900 GS/GT/GTO video cards died due to this.

I bought several of these last fall/winter, as they were super cheap on eBay (less than $10 shipped to my door, in a few cases). The ones with the small copper coolers with small 40 mm squirrel cage fans are hopeless. Even with the fan running at 100%, they still run too hot under load and manage to bumpgate themselves.

What I find even more amusing is that the 7900 GS and GT actually use about the same amount of power as a 8600 GT: about 40 Watts or so, under load. With my Xbox 360 CPU heatsink hacks, I couldn't get my 7900 GS to run above 55°C, even when overclocked to GT speeds and with an 80 mm fan running at 7 V to blow on the CPU heatsink. In comparison, the stock heatsink will spike to 60°C almost instantly under load, and from there it starts to rise slowly to 70-80°C (and that's with the small 40 mm fan cranking at 100%).

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

I thought there was segregation between that power, from what I've read. Even though, there doesn't need to be (they all share a common ground), I was reading a post about it saying the video cards they checked had it segregated. They called them districts.

It's good to know that not all video cards have it segregated like that though and the power that comes from the PCI-E bus can also power the circuit(s) that are being powered by those PCI-E connectors from the PSU.

[dmill89]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

So the fans get their power from the PCIe slots, not from those PCI-E power wires from the power supply?

it depends on how the card is designed, most GPUs that draw more than 75W draw power from both the slot and 6/8 pin connector(s). whether there is any segregation of that power depends on the design of the card.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Forcing a video card fan to always run at full speed.

With some wireless NICs though, part of the BIOS are stored in the drivers though, aren't they? I seem to remember trying to get a wireless NIC working in Linux and had to extract what I believe was the BIOS from the Windows drivers, in order for the WNIC to work correctly.

I'm sure there was still some sort of BIOS on the WNIC. Maybe they used the term BIOS lightly? For example, the card would still be correctly identified with lspci. It just wouldn't work without extracting the .bin file from the Windows drivers and using that with the Linux module.

So, what about the fans getting their power? Is it always from the PCI-E slots? A PCI-E 16x slot provides what? A maximum of 75 watts I think? And video cards that use up to 75 watt wouldn't need those extra connectors. This video card has a fancier GPU in it though and I believe the video card draws around 190 watts of power. This is the need for those PCI-E connectors from the PSU (the two 6-pin ones). Could the video card be drawing power from those two 6-pins to power the fans? Or are the fans always getting their power from the PCI-E slots?