Thermal compounds / pads and thermal conductivity.

[momaka]

Re: Thermal compounds / pads and thermal conductivity.

The RAM is directly to the right of the CPU. The RAM is so close to the CPU. The CPU heatsink can physically only be mounted one of two ways, but the way it's designed, changing the way the heatsink is mounted doesn't affect anything.

The fan can only mount on the heatsink on one of two sides. Either the side closest to the power supply, or the side further from the power supply. It cannot be on the side of the heatsink. So we cannot put it opposite side of the RAM. Regardless of where the heatsink fan is attached, the right hand side of the fan always rests on the two slots.

Ah, I see the picture now.

The fact that it is an AMD board is part of the reason why, as the CPU heatsink can only be oriented to pull or push air up. So I see why that's a problem now. We had problems like that we a few new Ryzen boards in the last place I worked. It wasn't until Cooler Master released a proper bracket that allowed us to flip the whole heatsink 90° so that we could avoid this problem. So before then, we also often encountered the same problem as you.
...
Yup, nothing you can do about it.

Hopefully, the PSU has a 120/140 mm fan so you can point the CPU heatsink fan to exhaust the hot air through the PSU. Not the best solution, but it should keep the heat out of the case. If the PSU is a good brand, it should take it without any problems.

APUs aren't really associated with gaming PCs to my knowledge. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite, isn't it? Aren't they generally for low-end systems that are made to surf the net, check e-mails, watch youtube videos and are usually found in tablets and similar devices?

Not exactly.

AMD's hope with those APUs at the time was to bring affordable gaming PCs with decent 1080p performance in already released game titles. And for the most part, those APUs did that fairly well, managing 30-40 FPS at 1080p, medium-high settings. Of course when the newer generation of games came out, these APUs could not quite keep up with them.

So those APUs are good for playing games that came before or right around the same time as the APUs themselves. But any games released after them may not play that well.

That said, modern high-end CPU and discrete GPU will no-doubt mop the floor with an APU like that. But again, for what it's worth, those APUs did fairly well.

The PSU needs to be replaced. I tried telling him that. It's going to destroy the motherboard and probably a bunch of other stuff along with it. He won't, not until his PC doesn't start anymore. But by then, it'll be too late, the damage will be done.

So scratch out what I said above about the CPU fan exhausting hot air into the PSU.

That said, what brand is the PSU?

He saw the numbers of cores and the speed of the process, the amount of RAM it had and made an impulse buy without properly doing his research.

You don't need a very fast CPU these days for gaming. Even a mid-range i5 will be more than enough to run anything with very good frame rates. The GPU pretty much takes care of all that. Slap a GTX 1060/1070/1080 in that PC, and I bet it will fly in games again... though I don't really suggest you do that now if the PSU is some no-name crap. If it is, it might take a 1050 at best, and that's not exactly a high-end gaming video card (though still adequate for a lot of stuff).

He takes cell phones and tries to root them and put custom firmware on them, and then when he bricks them, he brings them to me. I don't mind helping people, but I haven't been charging him. His girl lost her job or something and they're struggling for money, but how many times do you have to burn your hand on the stove before you learn not to touch the stove, right?

Yeah, I know that situation.
You are doing good in helping him - really shows that you are a nice person. That said, be careful, as some people will use that to take advantage of you. When they do, it's time to tell them what's what. And if they complain that you are overreacting or something... that's their problem.

[ChaosLegionnaire]

Re: Thermal compounds / pads and thermal conductivity.

ooops i went awol for a few weeks and missed the funn topics on this forum.

spork, glad u realised the issue wasnt the cpu to heatsink mating surface. in which case changing even to a super heat conductive compound with instant heat conduction (peltier thermoelectric coolers come to mind) wouldnt work either. the problem wasnt at that interface. rather the issue was the heatsink's surface area was inadequate for the tdp required. in which case, upgrading to a bigger heatsink with a bigger heat dissipation surface area is the only solution.

however, there is a third option which i wanna mention, that is to upgrade to a more powerful fan with better airflow/static pressure. however, that comes at the cost of more noise. if u have sound/noise sensitive (hyperacusis or misophonia) room mates or family members, it rules that out. however, like what momaka said with the thermal paste, a more powerful fan only results in a few degrees lower temperature. that may or may not improve the temperature below the critical threshold.

i also noticed, this heatsink also allows adding a second fan for push-pull config. i also wanna state for clarity's sake that only results in a few degrees of difference. again, it may or may not improve the temperature below the critical threshold.

so i hope that answers the question on ways to improve the cooling of a heatsink without replacing the heatsink itself.

next, regarding the kind of heatsinks u should and shouldnt buy. firstly, i wanna talk about the three reasons why people use aftermarket heatsinks:

1. u want to overclock
2. u want silence (much more than the stock heatsink)
3. u just have too much money to throw around

there are some heatsinks out there that cater to point #2 but the flip side is that some of them tradeoff cooling performance for silence so if your hardware is overheating obviously u cant have silence. u just have to avoid heatsinks that cater to #2 and just suck it with a noisier/bulkier heatsink or downgrade/undervolt/underclock the hardware to something that runs cooler.

dont be type #3 that wastes money on an aftermarket heatsink just for the fock of it. the extra money spent on an aftermarket heatsink might just get u better hardware instead. in which case, thats why u do your own research first before buying! any proper and decent aftermarket heatsink review should have the stock heatsink as the reference point. so ppl know why they should buy this heatsink and why they should use it over the stock heatsink.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Thermal compounds / pads and thermal conductivity.

Ah, I see the picture now.

The fact that it is an AMD board is part of the reason why, as the CPU heatsink can only be oriented to pull or push air up. So I see why that's a problem now. We had problems like that we a few new Ryzen boards in the last place I worked. It wasn't until Cooler Master released a proper bracket that allowed us to flip the whole heatsink 90° so that we could avoid this problem. So before then, we also often encountered the same problem as you.
...
Yup, nothing you can do about it.

Hopefully, the PSU has a 120/140 mm fan so you can point the CPU heatsink fan to exhaust the hot air through the PSU. Not the best solution, but it should keep the heat out of the case. If the PSU is a good brand, it should take it without any problems.
...

Unfortunately, there just weren't any optimal way of doing this, without replacing parts. I went with pushing the hot air through the PSU fan. If I went the other way, the PSU fan would be trying to pull the air from the CPU, the CPU would be trying to pull the air away from the PSU. It's soooo cramped.

With AMD and these APUs, even if at the time, they could play games on good settings, I don't think anyone can call an APU a gaming processor today. Generally though, the video card tends to do most of the processing. I would think if someone was into video games, a lot I mean, like this guy seems to be, they would be using an add-on video card, running on the PCIe bus at 16x. When games require more processing power, they simply upgrade the video card.

I just would not consider this system a gaming PC at all. 300$ is what he bought it for. The person who built it, we can assume they paid less than 300$ to build it. I'm thinking maybe 150$ - 200$.

Some people just see the numbers of cores and the speed of a processor and go nuts! They don't understand things like bottle necks and how a computer actually works. This customer, first thing he did, was max out the APU. Why? Because it was sooooo slow! He kept saying he couldn't understand why it was soooooo slow, it had 12 cores! I said no, some of them are just for the built-in GPU that's in the APU.

Hard drive was utilizing a lot of processing power. I think the APU couldn't communicate with everything at the same time. With Intel processors, I'd say the CPU has 40 PCIe lanes, for example. I don't know if they're called the same with AMD. But I think his APU just doesn't have enough lanes. So it needs to talk to this hardware for a bit, pause, talk to that hardware for a bit, pause, go back, etc.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Thermal compounds / pads and thermal conductivity.

ooops i went awol for a few weeks and missed the funn topics on this forum.

spork, glad u realised the issue wasnt the cpu to heatsink mating surface. in which case changing even to a super heat conductive compound with instant heat conduction (peltier thermoelectric coolers come to mind) wouldnt work either. the problem wasnt at that interface. rather the issue was the heatsink's surface area was inadequate for the tdp required. in which case, upgrading to a bigger heatsink with a bigger heat dissipation surface area is the only solution.

however, there is a third option which i wanna mention, that is to upgrade to a more powerful fan with better airflow/static pressure. however, that comes at the cost of more noise. if u have sound/noise sensitive (hyperacusis or misophonia) room mates or family members, it rules that out. however, like what momaka said with the thermal paste, a more powerful fan only results in a few degrees lower temperature. that may or may not improve the temperature below the critical threshold.

i also noticed, this heatsink also allows adding a second fan for push-pull config. i also wanna state for clarity's sake that only results in a few degrees of difference. again, it may or may not improve the temperature below the critical threshold.

so i hope that answers the question on ways to improve the cooling of a heatsink without replacing the heatsink itself.

next, regarding the kind of heatsinks u should and shouldnt buy. firstly, i wanna talk about the three reasons why people use aftermarket heatsinks:

1. u want to overclock
2. u want silence (much more than the stock heatsink)
3. u just have too much money to throw around

there are some heatsinks out there that cater to point #2 but the flip side is that some of them tradeoff cooling performance for silence so if your hardware is overheating obviously u cant have silence. u just have to avoid heatsinks that cater to #2 and just suck it with a noisier/bulkier heatsink or downgrade/undervolt/underclock the hardware to something that runs cooler.

dont be type #3 that wastes money on an aftermarket heatsink just for the fock of it. the extra money spent on an aftermarket heatsink might just get u better hardware instead. in which case, thats why u do your own research first before buying! any proper and decent aftermarket heatsink review should have the stock heatsink as the reference point. so ppl know why they should buy this heatsink and why they should use it over the stock heatsink.

Wow! Does the push-pull configuration really only cool down the system by a few degrees compared to a regular fan setup? With my other friends PC, we set up a push / pull configuration on the radiator and got some insane speeds, like over 4,000RPMs (compared to something like 1,500RPM or 2,000 RPM).

For the after market CPUs, that's what I was trying to get to. A stock heatsink should cool the CPU, I would think, just fine, unless of course, you're doing something like overclocking it. With that said, I mean if the system was built properly. Obviously, if you're getting no air flow into the case, you're going to have issues.

I noticed another reason people buy after-market fans. The look. Some people seem to like to show off their cases. Most, if not all, of the people I know locally who are into PCs are into for gaming, so maybe this is just a gaming thing? They have what we used to call back in the 90's, LAN parties. Not sure what they call them now. But you bring your PC to a party, where there's a bunch of other people, who brought theirs, and you play video games multi-player. Last game I did that with was a game called Descent. That was fun.

There is room in this case for another fan. A case fan. Which would help. I'm pretty sure the customer was using the on-board video card (because he had the APU). I don't think he was using an external video card. An external video card could help, but couldn't it also make the system slower?

Because it'd end up using x amount of lanes that go to the CPU, right? I don't have a strong understanding of that, just a semi-basic understanding.

Thanks!

[momaka]

Re: Thermal compounds / pads and thermal conductivity.

I don't think anyone can call an APU a gaming processor today.

It depends. (ain't that always the answer. )
There are three types of gamers: casual, retro, and "hardcore" (the ones which play all the latest games and are seriously into gaming in general).
The first two don't need the latest or greatest hardware.

I would think if someone was into video games, a lot I mean, like this guy seems to be, they would be using an add-on video card, running on the PCIe bus at 16x. When games require more processing power, they simply upgrade the video card.

Indeed that is the better way to do it.

This customer, first thing he did, was max out the APU. Why? Because it was sooooo slow! He kept saying he couldn't understand why it was soooooo slow, it had 12 cores! I said no, some of them are just for the built-in GPU that's in the APU.

Hard drive was utilizing a lot of processing power. I think the APU couldn't communicate with everything at the same time. With Intel processors, I'd say the CPU has 40 PCIe lanes, for example. I don't know if they're called the same with AMD. But I think his APU just doesn't have enough lanes. So it needs to talk to this hardware for a bit, pause, talk to that hardware for a bit, pause, go back, etc.

I doubt the PC was slow because of the AMD APU. I build a few of these, and they performed quite well. It's all down to the OS and junkware that the user puts on there. I have computers that are museum pieces and even some of them perform faster than the new multi-core PCs simply because I keep them well maintained.

Either you are dealing with a HDD that is slow, going bad, or bogged down with crapware.... or all there (I've seen that, and it's usually ridiculous to work on something like that). Just have him put in a better video card when he gets a better PSU and that should get him up to date. A GTX1050 is a good starting point as a low-mid-range video card, with the GTX1060 a very decent mid-range.

[ChaosLegionnaire]

Re: Thermal compounds / pads and thermal conductivity.

Wow! Does the push-pull configuration really only cool down the system by a few degrees compared to a regular fan setup? With my other friends PC, we set up a push / pull configuration on the radiator and got some insane speeds, like over 4,000RPMs (compared to something like 1,500RPM or 2,000 RPM).

this was from reviews i read on heatsinks that allow push-pull config but come with only 1 fan. when the reviewers added a second fan, it only dropped temperatures by a few degrees.

however, they didnt use a jet engine type of really high rpm, loud fan. i once had a coolermaster hyper 212 and i changed the stock fan of 1500rpm or so (cant remember the exact rpm of it anymore since i sold the whole heatsink and fan off) with a scythe ultra kaze 3000rpm 120x38mm fan. it only dropped temperatures by a few degrees.

For the after market CPUs, that's what I was trying to get to. A stock heatsink should cool the CPU, I would think, just fine, unless of course, you're doing something like overclocking it.

the only exception i found are the heatsinks for some high end i7 intel cpus. the 4790k was infamous for overheating to 80-90°C even on the stock cooler. the culprit was crappy tim under the cpu heatspreader by intel. intel also uses shitty push-pin mounting for their heatsinks. it warps the board over time and kills the cpu socket bga.

so i guess the fourth reason u want an aftermarket heatsink with a backplate and is simple to mount is because u want the mobo to last!

I don't think he was using an external video card. An external video card could help, but couldn't it also make the system slower? Because it'd end up using x amount of lanes that go to the CPU, right?

it doesnt work like that. im not sure if the igpu in the cpu itself also uses up pci-e lanes but like momaka said, even if the discrete gpu does, the bottleneck would still be elsewhere like the hard drive or software side. a computer system is only as strong as its weakest link, which is why m$ bases its overall system score on the lowest sub-score.

if the discrete gpu takes up 16 lanes out of 40, there would still be 24 remaining. and im assuming its pci-e gen3? which still gives tens of gigabytes per sec of system bus bandwidth remaining. the math theory seems to indicate that it is highly improbable adding a discrete gpu would slow the system down. that would also be a self defeating prophecy in upgrading to better hardware, no?