My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

[LoTechJoe]

ORIGINAL PROJECT: I have two computers. One for every day use, the other is (was) used for audio production. I'm an old radio geek and for a few extra dollars I voice produce ads for radio and TV. See My Profile.

My first computer (the every day machine) is really starting to show it's age (just like me.) The main board is a Biostar M7VKB with an AMD Duron 750MHz processor and 512 of RAM. I figure it's time to upgrade and build from scratch. Plans are to lose the beige case, go for better graphics, faster RAM and processor, add a DVD, etc. I should have the funds for a project like this in about two or three weeks.

My original plan was to purchase something like this…

• Antec Sonata III 500 Case with EA500 Power Supply
  Gigabyte GA-MA770-DS3 motherboard
  (2) Western Digital 160GB SATA Hard Drives
  LiteOn DVD writer
  AMD ADA5600CZBOX Dual-Core 2.8GHz Processor
  Thermaltake CL-P0200 CPU Heatsink & Fan
  Asus Geforce 8600GT PCIe Graphics Card
  Kingston 4GB PC2-6400 DC Memory
  Viewsonic-Optiquest Q91b 19 inch LCD Monitor
  Windows XP Professional x64

My thought here was to stripe the two hard drives for access speed. I'm not a gamer, so the graphics card should be fine.

THROW A WRENCH IN THE WORKS: Friday night I notice my second computer had reset the BIOS and was waiting for me to do the setup. I'm thinking WTF! I discover the BIOS is not recognizing my hard drive. Okay, it happens … this machine is over 5-years old and hard drives die. I pop in a fresh new drive, and since the case is open, grab my portable vacuum and clean the dust from the case. That's when I noticed the damaged capacitors on my Asus A7N8X.

THE PREDICAMENT: Hmm. This is going to change my plans. Money is tight, so I know rebuilding two machines is out of the question.

Now I am thinking of moving from two separate computers to one. Two computers are nice when both me and my wife want to use the computer at the same time. And … that happens a lot. But, money talks and B.S. walks!

The revised plans include using my current case (a full size Antec beast,) upgrade the PSU and motherboard, and maybe use that new hard drive as an internal backup to my planed RAID zero array.

For now, it's back to the drawing board for my wish list. Once I get a better idea of what components I plan to use, I'll post back here for your opinions.

[stevo1210]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

I see that your motherboard has Nichicon HM(M) capacitors. Though they are of a good brand, the HM and HN series of capacitors are prone to go bad. You should replace them and then you'll get a nice working motherboard again.

Thanks.

[shadow]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

That is right Stevo, and replacement of the capacitors is actually not very expensive. However you will need to source and buy the capacitors. I would think that would be quite easy given that Topcat (the owner of this website) sells capacitors to those that live in the US. On top of that you need a soldering iron and solder. Lastly you would need some spare time to actually do it.

Another alternative is to send the board to Topcat and he will recap it and test it for a fee.

[bgavin]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

As a computer servicer, I was an AMD guy for decades. Was. The AMD processors no longer compete with Intel for heat, performance, or price. I've had more than enough grief with asian chipsets and their never-ending stream of compatibility problems. VIA was the absolute worst, but the nForce give me enough problems to make the Intel chipsets look like safe haven.

The Gigabyte P35 based boards are excellent choices. Many come with all polymer caps; i.e. those with "Durable 2" in the text, or "D" in the model number. GA-P35-DS3 is the one I settled on for my client machines. The forums mention an audio latency problem with late BIOS for the Gigabyte machines, so check that out. An alternative is the MSI P35 Platinum board, which is reputed to not have a latency issue.

Recapping requires a solder station, not a soldering iron. You have to get the tip to 450 degrees C, or you will have poor results. I use the Hakko 936 for $75 USD, and it works a treat. Obtaining caps is pricey, and aggravating to purchase. If you are only doing 1 board, I urge you to send it to Topcat for top quality work. You will be money ahead sending it to him.

I've never bought Kingston memory intentionally, when I can get Corsair XMS. You can get quality XMS for DDR2-800 with CAS=4 for a reasonable price. Newegg is offering huge rebates on this memory, making the effective price some $29 USD for a 2x1gb pair. $15 per gig is cheap.

The stock Intel cooler is sufficient for non-overclocked use. Buy the processor retail package, and the cooler comes is included. You can spend a lot of money on after market coolers. I use the Scythe Zipang on a Core2 Duo E8400. It is overkill but it is indeed quiet. It uses a backing plate to distribute the significant weight of the cooler, so board removal is mandatory. The Intel cooler is stand push-pin and mounted without removing the board.

[i4004]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

>Recapping requires a solder station, not a soldering iron.

no it doesn't. station is surely better(and mostly because you can turn the temp DOWN, not because it has higher peak temp than higher wattage iron, as it doesn't), but 40 or 60w iron will do.

[kc8adu]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

recapping requires a good iron with good thermal mass.
it need not be expensive but a $5 harbor freight cheapie wont cut it.
i have a 60w weller in my toolbox that is used for emergency onsite recaps.
it costs about $20

[Newbie2]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

Don't bug him on the HM-HN caps, their issues were a few years ago and probably Nichicon has improved them now.

Nichicon did make a little boo-boo on the older 2003-2004 HM-HN caps, and along with the manufacturing boo-boo the Apple iMac and Dell systems they usually came in were in cramped cases with little ventilation, aggravating the original problem and making them fail across the world.

[bgavin]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

no it doesn't. station is surely better(and mostly because you can turn the temp DOWN, not because it has higher peak temp than higher wattage iron, as it doesn't), but 40 or 60w iron will do.

Of course. Any tool in the hands of a pro always performs better, even crappy tools. My point for the newbie was use a decent soldering device that generates 450C for proper de-soldering. A fine chisel point is a big plus.

I think of soldering irons as cheap junkers from Radio Shack or Harbor Freight. There are photos in another thread of a newbie blobbing solder on the board due to insufficient heat from using a soldering iron.

[LoTechJoe]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

As a computer servicer, I was an AMD guy for decades. Was. The AMD processors no longer compete with Intel for heat, performance, or price. I've had more than enough grief with asian chipsets and their never-ending stream of compatibility problems. VIA was the absolute worst, but the nForce give me enough problems to make the Intel chipsets look like safe haven.

The Gigabyte P35 based boards are excellent choices. Many come with all polymer caps; i.e. those with "Durable 2" in the text, or "D" in the model number. GA-P35-DS3 is the one I settled on for my client machines. The forums mention an audio latency problem with late BIOS for the Gigabyte machines, so check that out. An alternative is the MSI P35 Platinum board, which is reputed to not have a latency issue.

Recapping requires a solder station, not a soldering iron. You have to get the tip to 450 degrees C, or you will have poor results. I use the Hakko 936 for $75 USD, and it works a treat. Obtaining caps is pricey, and aggravating to purchase. If you are only doing 1 board, I urge you to send it to Topcat for top quality work. You will be money ahead sending it to him.

I've never bought Kingston memory intentionally, when I can get Corsair XMS. You can get quality XMS for DDR2-800 with CAS=4 for a reasonable price. Newegg is offering huge rebates on this memory, making the effective price some $29 USD for a 2x1gb pair. $15 per gig is cheap.

The stock Intel cooler is sufficient for non-overclocked use. Buy the processor retail package, and the cooler comes is included. You can spend a lot of money on after market coolers. I use the Scythe Zipang on a Core2 Duo E8400. It is overkill but it is indeed quiet. It uses a backing plate to distribute the significant weight of the cooler, so board removal is mandatory. The Intel cooler is stand push-pin and mounted without removing the board.

bgavin,

Thanks for the input. You have given me a lot to think about. You'll notice the 'D' in the Gigabyte board model I listed. Oddly enough, that was the reason for choosing that model. That's BEFORE I had the problem with the bad caps on my Asus.

I have sent the re-build request in to TopCat. I'm sure he'll get back with me as soon as possible. I'm certainly in no rush. I may build from new this time and have T.C. repair the caps on the bad board for a future project. Somewhere down the road, I would love to build a home HD-DVR.

[LoTechJoe]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

Of course. Any tool in the hands of a pro always performs better, even crappy tools. My point for the newbie was use a decent soldering device that generates 450C for proper de-soldering. A fine chisel point is a big plus.

I think of soldering irons as cheap junkers from Radio Shack or Harbor Freight. There are photos in another thread of a newbie blobbing solder on the board due to insufficient heat from using a soldering iron.

It has been a while, but I have used a soldering iron before and yes I will need to get a new one. I know better than to use the old Radio-Shack version that's in my tool box.

You guys mentioned the places NOT to get an iron ... what are some of the places to purchase a good one for I.C. use?

[i4004]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

joe, i wouldn't invest too much in iron if i wouldn't use it too often.
the only difference between weller and cheap crap will ultimately be durability, of which you won't care because you won't be repairing mobos all the time.
(heck, even if you would, you could buy few cheapos to last you years...).
practicing on broken mobos will give you experience and self-confidence.

i have weller that i payed about 55$ and i have cheapo that was 10$, and only thing i feel is that weller is overpriced to the max.
and that cheapo actually has better stand than cumbersome and weird weller thingie...

bgavin:

There are photos in another thread of a newbie blobbing solder on the board due to insufficient heat from using a soldering iron.

i think it's more about newbiness than about iron, as he has 60W iron.
(also, i would give him some credit: if he's a beginner, some of those joints are looking pretty good...for a beginner. with tip cleaning i think he would do just fine)

to that extent, here's a video-clip that demonstrates few things i already mentioned.

1-clean tip is more important than it's shape. chisel is not a must.
(https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...9252#post49252)

2-wooden toothpick used to clean holes
(https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...pick#post46122)

http://bbsrv.wks.gorlaeus.net/~i4004...oothpick_a.avi
(7.11mb)

cheap 60w iron used (https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...4&postcount=4), and as soon as i cleaned tip it's working well enough.
(you'll notice 1st attempt of getting it out was unsuccessfull....like i said rather high temp. of these higher wattage irons poisons the tip rather fast...that goes for wellers as much as cheapos..only way around it is to decrease the temp, or clean it frequently...)

and the end result is not too bad, for a quick demonstration


there is one important thing to mention about cheapos.
they're really only copper and thin layer of nickel(there really is no iron layer like on more expensive ones), and they probably won't come tinned(more expensive ones probably will).
so you'll need to tin it as soon as it can melt the tinol. if you don't, you'll have to use the rasp or alike to clean it (to reach copper).
this clips shows how unwettable portions that are left to overheat become
http://bbsrv.wks.gorlaeus.net/~i4004...698_lemilo.avi
(19.26mb)

[to watch these avi clips you need ffdshow with h.264 support enabled...
video decoder configuration->codecs->'decoder' for h264 should be libavcodec...if it's not, click on "disabled" and select "libavcodec"->apply->ok...]

to end my multimedial presentations, here's difference between new and used iron(same model, same vintage).
http://img111.*************/slideshow/player.php?id=img111/3305/1200550191jpw.smil
used one was heavilly beaten by rasp, but hey, that's my first iron, produced some time in the beginning of the 80s, and it's still working, and i'm still using it.
for a copper without any protection(i removed any traces of iron and chrome early on..hehe...no internet in those days to quickly learn about soldering tip anatomy
http://weller.blog.com/1840284/
and what not to do) it did pretty well.

[LoTechJoe]

Re: My Little Project: Build and/or Rebuild

i4004, very informative post. Thank you for the links.

I heard back from TopCat today. The cost of the re-cap of my old board is VERY reasonable. That really sounds like the way to go. I will probably get my new build out of the way first, them send him the board.

Joe