Happens without warning

[Shocker]

Re: Happens without warning

Other than that *special* drive above, everything else is still working.
The 80 GB 7200.7 Seagate in my family's computer has started making weird sounds now when it sits idle. It started doing that about 2 years ago, but it did it only very rarely. Now it does it almost every other 5 minutes or so. I have been watching the SMART log on it pretty much since 2008, and everything is still good, with no reallocated or pending sectors, 9600 hours of ON time, and about 5500 ON/OFF cycles. Still I'm worried since I've seen a considerable amount of these 7200.7 HDD fail at work. Quite a few have begun developing bad sectors too - anywhere from single digit numbers to a few hundred. And the pattern I've seen so far is that it only happens on the ones that have more than 10k ON hours (which my drive is very close to).

My ST380011A still works fine after 36,661 hours (is that the same type of drive you mentioned???). It makes no noises that I consider "weird". It came out of a system I got way back in 2004. Despite having run in the system with no case fans for about 3 years, it still kept on going. After burning my fingers on the drive, and adding case fans, I ran the system for another year, noticed it was becoming unstable (bad caps anyone??? ), then gutted it after XP finally gave out. The drive is about the only thing I still have from the system. Even if it's too small to hold all my DVD rips (I have that type of "don't take risks" mentality), it's quiet, stable, fast enough, and still works after a long time.

The drive remained on the shelf until mid-2009. I then brought it back into use, and it's still operating as I write this. I eventually got an ST31000528AS late in 2010 after running out of space.

I'm developing something of a suspicion that technology is being pushed too far recently. I got an ST31000524AS last year, and later in the year it started developing lots of bad sectors. I'm somewhat afraid of the current state of the art (1TB/platter).

I still consider the 7200.7 more reliable than the extreme technology of today. If you differ in opinion, go ahead and explain, but please don't start a flame war.

[mockingbird]

Re: Happens without warning

Yes, I concur. Those old Seagate 7200.7s are bulletproof.

[Shocker]

Re: Happens without warning

@Mockingbird

Noticed that the major drive manufacturers are cutting warranties???

Sad. Especially because PSUs have longer warranties these days.

Well, I guess I can be safe in knowing that if the new tech fails hard, I will have my old ST380011A to put my super important stuff on.

It's more environmentally friendly to, when you need a new HDD, buy the biggest one you can get (assuming it doesn't fail before its time), but only when the industry is in good shape.

My ST31000528AS still works fine so far, but I hate to think of the very prospect of failure.

Tell me if you're thinking of giving up on high tech, or if you already have.

I got the ST31000528AS after totally filling my ST380011A. I'll play it safe next time and get my next new drive when I have about 10GB left. 10GB is not much, but probably enough to keep me going if my shiny new 15TB drive of 2016 or so fails. How much space is enough to keep you going, I wonder???

[mockingbird]

Re: Happens without warning

Yes, there seems to be a certain trend of mediocrity in electronics these days...

I can buy a good TV, but I can't buy a great TV.
I can buy a fast HDD, but I can't buy a good HDD.

It seems that manufacturers are only producing what people actually want when their backs are up against a wall. For years, I looked among computer case manufacturers for a professional-looking, high quality brand name case.

I can't, with a straight face, sell something like this to a customer:

Not to mention that I can't find any nice beige cases or screens anymore, ever since the AZNs declared black to be mandatory.

And TVs.... IT seems like we're stuck with two technologies. LCD and Plasma. Both awful in comparison to CRT IMHO. Now I have never personally owned an LCD TV, but I was at Wal-Mart (a rare occurance) two weeks ago and had a look at their LCDs. The high-motion scenes were not pleasant to watch. Totally unacceptable for me. Give me a good old CRT screen anytime.

Plasma.... The display looks waxy. They run very hot and seem to be prone to failure. The only reliable units are very high-end Neoplasma Panasonics it seems or 3D Samsungs (Which are built better than non-3D Plasmas).

Then I looked at LCD projected DLPs that never need bulb replacement. Not as bright as either LCD or Plasma, but none of the shortcomings either. Well, no one makes LCD DLPs anymore except for Mitsubishi and Mitsubishi's TVs are junk.

The point is that this is what you get stuck with when there's no competition. LCD TVs that are considered good have how many panel makers? How many HDD manufacturers are there?

I have already given up on high tech. When the market has to cater to women and young people, it is no longer exciting for ordinary afficionados. When we allow Asians to produce as well as design our technology, we will get boring technology. Asians are good at copying American ideas, not coming up with their own.

Back to HDDs. The lack of reliability on modern hard drives is two-pronged. They're a lot lighter than old drives, and are probably a lot more sensitive to shock. The quality of drive batches these days depends heavily on how well they are shipped.

Next, it's the way the HDDs are written to. With the move to high-density platters, the way they write to these platters has changed in the past few years. I don't remember where, I think it was at StorageReview, but I read how someone claimed it to be an unreliable technology.

You would think they would keep the old technology for lower-capacity drives, but no. And here's why: Desktop HDDs are no longer primarily sold to desktop users. The biggest consumer of desktop HDDs is data farms. They don't care about failures. They keep thousands of drives in storage ready to be hot-swapped. The desktop market is being forcibly moved to SSD.

[b700029]

Re: Happens without warning

SSDs are not that much better, the only advantage they really have over HDDs is shock resistance and lower power consumption. Magnetic media is theoretically capable of storing information indefinitely, because it's bistable. Flash is not - the unprogrammed 1 state is stable, the programmed 0 state is not stable because the electrons in the cell will want to tunnel out. It's also not a matter of how many writes before the drive starts making errors, but how long the data will last.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...e-25nm-Vs-34nm

The move to smaller and smaller process sizes makes the problem worse. They try to cover it up with very sophisticated ECC and wear leveling but that can only go so far. It seems reliability is not the top priority for data storage anymore.

[KeriJane]

Re: Happens without warning

Everything Will Be Fine!*

Modern drives not reliable enough? They never really were all that reliable!
All hard drives, even the best of the old ones, eventually fail.
Those server farms got the right idea... just do a RAID or regular backups.
Which we really should have been doing all along anyway.

Don't go to Wal-Mart unless you're shopping for CHEAP TV sets with crummy everything.

Gotta have CRT? Sounds like second-hand is the way to go.

Black is the new Beige?
All you need is a screwdriver, sandpaper, masking tape and spray paint! Think of it as black primer coat....


It's Onwards and Upwards we go! Faster! Better!
Not really Cheaper for the good stuff though.
Good stuff always costs more but is cheaper in the end.




* = "Fine" is relative and mostly a state of mind

[Shocker]

Re: Happens without warning

I can't, with a straight face, sell something like this to a customer:

Next, it's the way the HDDs are written to. With the move to high-density platters, the way they write to these platters has changed in the past few years. I don't remember where, I think it was at StorageReview, but I read how someone claimed it to be an unreliable technology.

I think that was PCBONEZ on perpendicular recording and "stealth data loss".
Funny though I have never had stealth data loss to date.

SSDs are not that much better, the only advantage they really have over HDDs is shock resistance and lower power consumption. Magnetic media is theoretically capable of storing information indefinitely, because it's bistable. Flash is not - the unprogrammed 1 state is stable, the programmed 0 state is not stable because the electrons in the cell will want to tunnel out. It's also not a matter of how many writes before the drive starts making errors, but how long the data will last.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...e-25nm-Vs-34nm

The move to smaller and smaller process sizes makes the problem worse. They try to cover it up with very sophisticated ECC and wear leveling but that can only go so far. It seems reliability is not the top priority for data storage anymore.

Now what are we going to do???

Modern drives not reliable enough? They never really were all that reliable!
All hard drives, even the best of the old ones, eventually fail.
Those server farms got the right idea... just do a RAID or regular backups.
Which we really should have been doing all along anyway.

Well my important stuff is backed up to the ST380011A...
And like others I refuse to believe that new drives are even close to the reliability of older models...

Conclusion: ST380011A >>> ST31000524AS for reliability

I have a spare WD 40GB drive that's similar technology wise to the ST340014A. I'm thinking of shifting my important stuff to the ST380011A and backing up to the WD. Just you wait...

It's Onwards and Upwards we go! Faster! Better!
Not really Cheaper for the good stuff though.
Good stuff always costs more but is cheaper in the end.

Unfortunately it's getting harder and harder to find good stuff...

[Shocker]

Re: Happens without warning

I'm thinking of shifting my important stuff to the ST380011A and backing up to the WD. Just you wait...

Well I've done shifting it.

And after cleaning out a load of junk, I have about 52% free space.

It took a while, which is why I'm only now back here.

And as much as I hate to say it, I don't think bgavin will be pleased with me.

[Shocker]

Re: Happens without warning

Oh, and in case you're wondering, my system starts off an ST360021A which I salvaged from a freebie system.

[momaka]

Re: Happens without warning

My ST380011A still works fine after 36,661 hours (is that the same type of drive you mentioned???).

Yup, that's it.

Those old Seagate 7200.7s are bulletproof.

I wouldn't call them bulletproof as I've seen quite a few of them fail at work. But yeah, when compared to all of the newer drives out there right now, they are indeed bulletproof. WDs of the same era as those ST380011As are even more bulletproof IMO. Haven't seen a bad one yet (then again, I haven't seen as much as some of you here have, either).

How much space is enough to keep you going, I wonder???

Not much at all. My music collection is about 6 GB, pictures about 2-3 GB, documents and school projects another 1-2 GB, and some software and other files 1-2 GB. That's the core stuff though. If I count movies, games, and a few other things I don't necessarily consider important, I *might* have enough to fill a 60 GB drive.
A few years back (around 2004 - 2006), none of my computers had big HDDs, so I burned a lot of stuff on CDs. I remember when I bought a used LG CED-8080B CD-RW drive... I was so happy I could finally burn some CDs and free up some space. Then I got a second 20 GB HDD afterwards - took a while to fill it.

[Shocker]

Re: Happens without warning

They always say the new technology is better, don't they???

IIRC, the 7200.7 has a specified MTBF of 600,000. The 7200.12 is specified as 750,000, but we know now that the current technology is never as reliable as the old, right??? After reading this thread, I don't think I'll ever consider trusting a perpendicular recording drive with my "important stuff". (To me, music isn't important)

I might trust perpendicular recording when reports of "stealth data loss" disappear, AND the new drives start weighing at least as much as the old ones...

ST380011A: 544g
ST1000DM003: 400g
(Both single-platter HDDs)

From the 7200.10 datasheet, for your entertainment:
"First 3.5-inch drive to utilize capacity- and reliability-boosting perpendicular recording technology"



And what about this:
"Industry's most proven and established desktop hard drive available today—more than 16 million shipped to date"

Most established drive, maybe, but the jury is still out on how "proven" it actually is.

Not to say there aren't any good innovations, of course (SATA and ATX come to mind), but it would appear that perpendicular recording is not one of them.

For me, an 80GB drive is probably about as much as I need for everything important. I don't eat HDD space very fast (except when ripping DVDs, and I use the 1TB drive for them), so I think it'll be enough space for at least another two years.

@momaka: I'm worried for your drive, with your reference to "weird noises". If it's a faint buzzing that stops instantly when the drive is accessed, that's normal for the 7200.7. Otherwise, .

[momaka]

Re: Happens without warning

@momaka: I'm worried for your drive, with your reference to "weird noises". If it's a faint buzzing that stops instantly when the drive is accessed, that's normal for the 7200.7. Otherwise, .

That's a relief.
Yup, it's the weird buzzing until drive is accessed. It didn't used to do that when it was new(ish), though. However, it hasn't been doing it that much lately, either.
Don't worry about my drive. I'm checking the SMART logs regularly. I also have a spare of the exact same model. And my important data (mostly pictures... and music, lol... I don't care too much about the school files) lives across multiple computers.

[Scenic]

Re: Happens without warning

Yes, I concur. Those old Seagate 7200.7s are bulletproof.

7200.7. Almost 5 years. No bad sectors.

[mockingbird]

Re: Happens without warning

[Scenic]

Re: Happens without warning

1225 days / 3.35 years..
Initial burn in completed. Off to another 5+ years of service lol
Also *click*

[Shocker]

Re: Happens without warning

Fast, big, reliable, cheap: Pick any three. Guess which three the industry picks these days???

For the combination of fast, reliable, cheap (not everything needs terabytes of space) I guess I'm limited to old drives. For big, reliable, cheap, there's nothing. For fast, big, reliable it's enterprise drives (expensive).

I know I'm using the terms in a relative sense, but for me that's good enough.

If you remember the saying "quality over quantity", well that's exactly what I want for docs, pics, and software. For movies and music, though, I have to compromise, and I'm not buying an enterprise drive just for them.

cheapskates. Whatever happened to quality???

I bet you won't even want to KNOW what abuse my ST380011A took in the past. But if you do, go ahead and ask. I bet it'll be enough to give you a freakout.

[Agent24]

Re: Happens without warning

The lesson is, don't depend on Software/Firmware like Smart to anticipate catastrophic failure

SMART only accurately predicts about 50% of failures.

But it's a lot better than nothing!

[pfrcom]

Re: Happens without warning

The irony is, it still clacks when connected to another computer/motherboard, but is recognised with message "Smart capable and status OK"

To repeat a bit of post #1

[Shocker]

Re: Happens without warning

My cat knocked an ST320414A off the edge last year. Fell like four feet. Still worked when I plugged it in later.

Well I suppose the SeaShield (which they dropped from the 7200.7, sadly) absorbed a bit of the impact, but still...

It's not easy to kill a 7200.7. Short of:

• Freefall
• Immersion
• Damaged components on PCB
• Removing the lid (duh)
• Antec StupidPower or TroublePower

Have I missed anything??? Anyway I think I've explained it in full.

ST380011A - still in working order after a very long time, with some decidedly less-than-normal treatment along the way
ST31000524AS - deteriorating horribly after a very short time with perfectly normal treatment

Compare and contrast. Feel free to write about your own, similar case.

I also have an ST31000333AS (from a USB box) which has its own, different problem. Caused a few BSoDs while I was using it. When I pulled it out, the computer was stable again.

BTW: Sorry if this gives you a freakout, but the maximum recorded temperature on my ST380011A is 67°C!!!!!

I'm also curious about which is the quietest HDD you've ever owned. I think the quietest was the ST340014A - those things were unnoticeable.

[Scenic]

Re: Happens without warning

I can't hear my WD10EVDS from a normal distance. Have to put my ear right next to the case to hear anything (and even then, it's only noticeable when it's reading/writing full blast)

I've set AAM to the lowest setting (quiet) though. If I put it on "high performance" you can clearly hear it when reading/writing from a normal distance.

HDTune can set AAM and has a handy test button below it to show the effects (notice the link in post #35)

Modern "Green" drives are so damn quiet.. When I first got the HDD mentioned above I thought it was defective cause I couldn't hear it spin up. At all.