Dell E310 problems - Need advice

[friscokid]

First off, great site. Within 1 week, my LCD died, SageTV HD extender died, and my friends Dell E310 won't boot into xp.
Fixed my SageTV and LCD no problem, but the Dell is still having problems.

Symptoms started with machine not shutting down, then problems with USB syncing to Ipod. Now, it won't boot into windows, BSOD. However, it DOES pass all the Dell diagnostics!
Inside, the two 1000uF 10v, KZJ (M)105, 5(2), DI between the RAM sticks were leaking brown stuff on top so I changed those, but made no difference.

There were several 470uF caps sitting a little sideways, but looking with flashlight underneath didn't show anything. I'm assuming they just were not installed straight? Thoughts?

I saw another post on here for the same machine that the PS had blown caps, but I didn't check that. I will when I get the machine back.
Should I just replace all caps on the board, or ones above 470?

Also, I only have a 40watt iron with pencil tip. When removing those two caps, the surface of the board around the hole turned 'slightly' brown from the heat. There were several trace lines VERY close to the leads. Is this a problem? Can I damage these trace lines with just a little heat?
My solder didn't touch the trace lines, but they are very close. Do I need to worry about trace lines on the other caps or is there some coating over them that protects them?

Thanks for any advice! Mike

P.S. I'm using Panasonic FC for replacements.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

I'm using Panasonic FC for replacements.

Not low enough ESR for this job.

I saw another post on here for the same machine that the PS had blown caps, but I didn't check that. I will when I get the machine back.

By what you've said this is the #1 suspect.

Inside, the two 1000uF 10v, KZJ (M)105, 5(2), DI between the RAM sticks were leaking brown stuff on top so I changed those, but made no difference.

KZJ is a series. What brand? Could be more than one KZJ.
If you used FC the ESR isn't low enough there.

There were several 470uF caps sitting a little sideways, but looking with flashlight underneath didn't show anything. I'm assuming they just were not installed straight? Thoughts?.

If the bung isn't pushed out they were just installed crooked. Not all that uncommon.

Should I just replace all caps on the board, or ones above 470?

Don't have enough info yet to make that call.
What brands and series are all the caps?

Also, I only have a 40watt iron with pencil tip. When removing those two caps, the surface of the board around the hole turned 'slightly' brown from the heat. There were several trace lines VERY close to the leads. Is this a problem? Can I damage these trace lines with just a little heat?

Yes you can damage it.
You want a lot of heat so you can get on and off the board quickly.
That minimizes the heat spreading through the board.
I'd recommend a 60 Watt with a 2mm to 2.5mm chisel tip for removal.
A 40 Watt with the same size chisel tip might be okay for installing.

My solder didn't touch the trace lines, but they are very close. Do I need to worry about trace lines on the other caps or is there some coating over them that protects them?

The coating won't protect them from heat or mechanical damage. It's for oxidation.
Yes, you do not want to damage traces.

Are you using solder braid to remove the solder?
Speeds things up.

Use a needle to clear the holes so the new caps fit.
Needle on one side, iron on the other until it goes through.

Check the ESR and Ripple of the original caps and choose your replacements by that.
If you need help finding that info then tell us what the old ones are.

Frys Electronics [if you have one] has a basic 60 watt iron for $10-$15 but the 'stock' tip will need changed to the style I mentioned above.
They will also have solder braid.

Since you don't see any bloated caps on mobo - check the PSU!

.

[friscokid]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

I'd recommend a 60 Watt with a 2mm to 2.5mm chisel tip for removal.
A 40 Watt with the same size chisel tip might be okay for installing.

I was able to get them out ok with the 40watt pencil. When I tried to get the left over solder out by using the braid, I put the braid on the board and tried to heat through it.. I think this heated up the whole braid and caused the heat discoloration to the sides.. Guess I should heat it up, then push the tip of the braid onto it? Never used braid before.. thinking of getting the pneumatic thing instead.

The coating won't protect them from heat or mechanical damage. It's for oxidation.
Yes, you do not want to damage traces.

Since the behavior of the board has not change, I'm hoping I didn't damage the trace. Can I check the continuity of the trace with my multimeter? I'm assuming no due to the coating.

Check the ESR and Ripple of the original caps and choose your replacements by that.
If you need help finding that info then tell us what the old ones are.

Since you don't see any bloated caps on mobo - check the PSU!

There aren't any other markings on this cap.. only a raised 'V' on the rubber on the bottom. It's black with gold negative line color with an oval..
Similar colored Dell E310 cap from PS But obviously no OST marking.
What series should I use here? Could these still be the actual problem, but I just didn't fix it due to wrong ESR?

Thanks again, Mike

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

You are going through the right motions but you aren't understanding everything that's going on.
Don't worry. Almost everyone starts out like that and learns as they go along.
->> You might wanna get a junk motherboard to play with until you've got it down.

>>I think this heated up the whole braid and caused the heat discoloration to the sides.<<
-
It's heating up like that because that iron doesn't get hot enough and/or has too long of a recovery time and/or doesn't transfer heat fast enough because the tip contact area is too small.
-
When the iron is hot and you touch something the tip instantly cools off and then it and everything it is in contact with heats back up gradually. [The recovery time]. If it's too slow then the PCB surrounding the joint has time to heat up too. The PCB is resistant to conducting heat so there is a lag in it heating up but if you apply heat for too long it will heat up anyway and that's what is burning the board.
~ What you want is for the joint to heat to melting temp too fast for the PCB to conduct much heat and then to 'get off' with the iron.
-
- Lower watts -> longer recovery time because there is less energy going into the tip from the iron. Longer recovery time -> takes longer to get the solder to melting temp, heat spreads further from the joint, and PCB heats up with the joint.
- Higher watts -> faster recovery, joint gets to temp faster, less heat spreads by conduction because you are 'on it' for less time.
-
A tip with too small a contact area with the work will have the same affect as a slow recovery time simply because there is too small of an area for the heat to move through. - The other side of that is too big a tip will heat places you don't want heat and increase the risk of damaging nearby traces.
-
A tip with more mass [weight] will cool off less when you touch the work and that improves recovery time. You don't want a long thin tip for this. [Those are for other kinds of work.] What you want is a fat tip that's only tapered for the last 1/4" to 3/8" or so.
[Tip mass and watts counter balance each other. With more watts you need less tip mass to get to the same recovery time as before.]
-
A 2mm to 2.5mm wide chisel tip gives you more contact area than a pencil point and shouldn't be so wide as to cause problems with nearby traces.
-

~~~
[One of many methods, everyone has their own routine that works for them.]
Heat the iron.
Tin the tip.
With cap still in, place the braid over the joint.
[Make SURE the area of braid on the joint has NO solder in it. It should be flexible past the joint in both directions.]
Push the iron tip into the braid as if you are trying to push it into the hole the cap lead is in. [Allow the braid to slip on the solder when it melts.]
At some point you should see the end of the cap's lead shift and feel the end of the tip tying to go into the hole.
Watch the braid. As soon as it fills with solder remove the iron and the braid together.
If you are lucky that will get most of the solder out of the hole. You want to at least see the outline of the hole which isn't perfect but good enough. If you don't see the hole at all then let it rest [cool] and do it again in a few minutes.
[Do the other lead the same way.]
-
Now alternately heat the leads and 'walk' the cap out.
Do NOT use force! - See about 'via's' further down the page.
If they were bent over then you may need to straighten the old leads to get them to 'go'.
-
[With cap out]
- If the hole is plum full of solder use the braid again.
[If the solder in the hole is a depression then add a bit of solder to the pad to bring the solder level to or above the plain of the board before you do the braid.]
- If you can see through the hole but it's not open enough for the new cap lead then gently push a [stainless steel] needle through from one side while heating with the iron on the other. Spinning/rotating the needle helps a little. Let it cool, the needle should move freely. Clean any solder off of it and CAREFULLY back it back out of the hole while spinning/rotating it. If it won't go heat and cool it again.
[There is 'a sleeve' in these holes called a via. You don't want to knock or pull one out because via's are the connection points to any circuits between the layers of the board and well as from the top to the bottom of the board.]
-
Clean the snot out of it with isopropyl alcohol and an old [clean] tooth brush.
Let dry.
-
Make sure you have the polarity right and put in the new cap.
Invent something to hold the damned thing still when you flip the board over. [I have an assortment of wood blocks. Some people just bend the leads so they stay in but I don't like the method so much.]
Tin the iron.
Touch iron tip to pad and lead at the same time.
Touch solder to pad and lead [but not the tip if you can help it] at the same time.
As soon as hole fills and pad is covered remove solder and iron at the same time.
Clean with isopropyl and check your work with a magnifying glass.
Look for 'solder hairs' or blobs that bridge to nearby traces and check the nearby traces for damage.

~~~
You can check continuity by following the trace both ways and finding solder pads that are connected to the trace to use as test points.
-
If you have to fix a trace you want a long skinny tip and a lower watt iron.
Scrape the coating off to copper and either [depending on how bad it is] bridge the gap with a run of solder, or, solder in a piece of discarded [trimmed] cap lead. If all else fails solder a tiny insulated wire from one test point to the other.
[I haven't had to do this much which is good because it can be tricky and I'm lousy at it....]

~~~
>> There aren't any other markings on this cap. <<
That's an Intel built board. Intel doesn't use unmarked or even non-Japanese caps.
If you have one then someone else has worked on this board before and that might be the problem.
- Where was this cap installed?

[friscokid]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

Thanks for the detailed instructions.

It was the two big caps between the DDR slots. They even have the same blue line (marker?) across the top. I think this is an original from Dell, i.e. one owner. There is a symbol of some sort before the KZJ letters.. Almost an outline of a rectangle, but looking close, it looks like there are slight flares on the outside top corners and right in the middle of the top as well. Sort of like outline of a dutch oven? Kinda.. maybe..

When I get it back.. I'll check the other caps, but I don't know if they will mean anything, since they don't all have to be the same it seams.

-Mike

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

OKAY!
That logo is a Shield ---> Chemicon

[friscokid]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

OKAY!
That logo is a Shield ---> Chemicon

Hmm.. those are supposed to be good caps.. Maybe PS caused this?

Looks like both my ESR and Ripple current are way low with the FC caps.

I'll have to search around on Mouser for something to meet those specs. I work only a few miles from their warehouse, but they don't allow pickup. Oh well, last order only cost $4.50 and showed up 10am next morning.

I'll have to wait to see what other caps need to be replaced before ordering.

-Mike

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

Chemicon is also called UCC for short.
The base company is United Chemicon. They have several regional based satellite companies such as Nippon Chemicon for distribution but all the various Chemicon variations are the same company.

UCC KZJ 1000uF 10v [10mm - judging by pic] - ESR .018 , Ripple 1960
Panasonic FC are no where near up to that task.
FC's ESR is almost 4 times higher and they handle about 1/2 as much ripple.

Of the caps that are fairly easy to get your hands on lately, Rubycon MZC would be the best choice to replace those.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

UCC KZG and KZJ series are suspected of being oversensitive to heat.

With excessive heat [poor cooling] or a bad PSU -ANY- electrolytic cap can fail.
Dell SFF and USFF [mini systems] even burn up Rubycons and Panasonics with regularity because they have poor airflow.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

The only thing I can think of at mouser that is rated near that high is Nichicon HN Series or possibly Nichicon HZ.
-
Badcaps.net sells MCZ but I dunno what shipping time to you would be.

[friscokid]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

The only thing I can think of at mouser that is rated near that high is Nichicon HN Series or possibly Nichicon HZ.
-
Badcaps.net sells MCZ but I dunno what shipping time to you would be.

I checked mouser, couldn't find anything with that low ESR.
On digi-key, the only thing I found was
Nichicon CAP POLY ALUM 1000UF 10V SMD r PCG1A102MCL1GS at a whopping $2.75 each, but I don't know if that is the right kind anyway.. SMD?
Looks like badcaps store is my next stop.


Also, is there a chance that those are still my problem caps? Or are they just more likely to blow sooner?

-Mike

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

No no, you need a "Radial" cap.
SMD is "Surface Mount Device". - SMD have no leads, just solder tabs.

The new BCN Rubycon page is here.
https://www.badcaps.net/store/index....p3tpetlkjtg313

~~
I'm not following the last question.
I'm not sure which 'those' or what 'they' you mean.
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

Mouser does have some in HZ.
HZ 10x12.5mm - ESR .012 , Ripple 2280
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine....rd=UHZ1A102MPM

The HN 10x16mm would work but they are out of stock.

It's also not a problem to use a 16v cap in place of a 10v.
.

[friscokid]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine....rd=UHN1A102MPD

This is the HN in 10mmx12.5mm. Would that one work? It's 200 lower than the original on ripple current. No problems though, since HZ is in stock, just trying to understand for future reference.

I'm getting the machine back tomorrow, so I'll checkout the PS and see what I can find out.

I was using the 'ESR' column in the filter on mouser to search for Impedance. Guess that wasn't right.

Thanks for finding those!

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

Not your fault.

Mouser's ESR search doesn't work very well because they don't enter all the data for -all- the caps in their database.
If they don't enter it the search can't find it.
-
For their caps database Mouser is only reliable about entering UF, Volts, and Temp.
Everything else is hit and miss.

At Mouser also always double check the physical size Mouser claims in their info to the info in the manufacturer's data sheet. I've found a lot of errors for the diameter. They also often list the lead's wire diameter in the space that's supposed to be the Lead Space. [Lead Space = The distance between the two leads.]
-
Gotta remember the data entry people dunno squat about caps.

No I wouldn't use that HM.

For Ripple, more is better.
Ripple is basically how much Ripple Current the cap can handle without over heating internally. [Could sort of be compared to an amp rating for a wire.]
As the original went bad you don't want a cap that handles less Ripple than it did.

For ESR, less is better.
ESR can basically be thought of as the resistance to passing Ripple through the cap.
Since the caps connect Ripple to ground to filter it out of the circuit, less resistance to passing the Ripple is better.
.

[friscokid]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

Update: Finally got the machine back, less all the USB stuff hanging off and the original HD.
Opened up the PS, everything looks fine.

I hooked up a new USB kb and mouse and new SATA HD with Vista instead of XP.
Machine still has hi ESR Panasonic FM caps from earlier.

Boots fine and running Prime95 for over half-hour so far..

Previously, XP would not boot at all, even into safe-mode.
Could this still have been a bad driver or related to one of the USB devices pulling too much power?
There was a webcam, printer, Zip drive. Recall, the IPod shuffle had erratic behavior dropping on and off device list (It was trying to charge off the usb port as well).

Anybody seen this before?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

USB Ports are rated to provide 0.5 amps max. [Total for the Port.]
Anything more than that and the devices need to have their own power sources.

[friscokid]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

USB Ports are rated to provide 0.5 amps max. [Total for the Port.]
Anything more than that and the devices need to have their own power sources.

I would assume that Apples Ipod is within spec (hopefully).

I'm just wondering if there could still bad caps on the board (or my changed caps) and that it just appears stable right now because there aren't really much USB load on it right now.

I guess to know, I should get one of the ESR devices... That MicroESR looks good, but the website looks questionable.. Maybe I'll just get the Blue ESR instead. It would pay for itself with just one saved motherboard...

-MIke

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

You need to look on the device to know how much it uses.

[friscokid]

Re: Dell E310 problems - Need advice

You need to look on the device to know how much it uses.

Well, Vista seemed fine, but I tried to boot into FreeNAS, a BSD based OS, and it immediately gives an I/O error on the USB-Hub and shuts it down. Only a keyboard hooked up.

Definitely something still wrong within the USB hardware for the machine.

Suggestions on anything I can check with a DMM or should I just order those two low ESR caps first?

Thanks for all the help so far, Mike