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**eccerr0r** · 12-15-2019, 11:04 PM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Things are so much easier in Linux nowadays with EDID and VESA standardization... before these standards, getting those modeline numbers took a bit of work, and even worse if you didn't have the data for your monitor to compute the modelines...

... and there was also the risk of making the magic smoke leak out of your monitor if you got the modeline numbers a bit wrong...

**TechGeek** · 12-16-2019, 06:37 AM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post

Things are so much easier in Linux nowadays with EDID and VESA standardization... before these standards, getting those modeline numbers took a bit of work, and even worse if you didn't have the data for your monitor to compute the modelines...

... and there was also the risk of making the magic smoke leak out of your monitor if you got the modeline numbers a bit wrong...

Especially if it was one of the el-cheapo ones that just *accepted* whatever it was given without checking to see if it was a valid signal that was in range, an out of range signal, or even a toaster. I've read quite a bit of stories about the horizontal section blowing up in monitors when too high of a horizontal refresh rate was fed into it.

Higher refresh rate = higher frequency on flyback = higher B+ and related voltage rails = closer to finding the weak link

**momaka** · 12-18-2019, 06:26 PM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

...
Or you can use software like RivaTuner, PowerStrip, or MSI Afterburner (I think!) to set a custom resolution with a custom refresh rate, as some monitors (particularly BNC-connected ones) will always default to 60 Hz (especially in Windows XP and older.) If using a relatively new GPU (anything made after the mid-2000), both nVidia and ATI include options in their software to override the default resolutions and refresh rates. But like you said, check what your monitor is capable of so to make things easier (and possibly save a cheap/old monitor from going bad if it doesn't have any proper protections.) That said, even most cheap CRT monitors tend to have protection again over-scanning. But constantly getting an "out of range" error can get annoying after a while.

On the topic of refresh rates... I always try to run my CRTs @ 85 Hz. I'll drop the resolution if I have to, just to keep the refresh rate at 85 Hz. Sure I can tolerate 75 Hz and even 72, but the flicker is noticeable and does cause a little more strain on my eyes. At 85 Hz, I can be using my monitors all day and not have any issues at all.

Also, for games that can keep up their FPS above the refresh rate of the monitor, I find that 60 Hz looks quite smooth, but still not 100% seamless, regardless if I have v-sync on or off. At 75 Hz, things look better. And at 85 Hz with full v-sync... on a CRT... games are smooth like molten butter. I'd say probably equivalent to an LCD @ 120 Hz. And even without v-sync, things still look good on a CRT without tearing, unlike on LCDs. Hence why I still game on my CRTs. As bonus, I also don't need to use anti-aliasing, since CRTs naturally have non-square pixels and thus smooth "pixel" edges.

**eccerr0r** · 06-16-2020, 07:23 AM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

It's 2020. How many people still use CRTs?

I still have two CRT monitors, one is hooked up to my RAID backup machine though the machine is kind of broken right now. Nevertheless the occasional time I need to look at the machine, it's its monitor...

**momaka** · 06-16-2020, 09:11 AM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

*Raises hand proudly*

Yes, I still use CRTs.
Almost exclusively, actually.

My LCDs are only for testing or if I need to put up a temporary PC setup somewhere.

Here is an old picture I put on badcaps showing my setup some 5 years ago or so.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...0&d=1499215509

I've changed/swapped out some of the CRTs on my desk for others, as did a few PCs. (Also de-cluttered in some areas, but made more clutter in others, especially lately after my last job, where I kept bringing in stuff from the dumpster/trash.) But it's still an accurate representation of my setup more or less.

**Uranium-235** · 06-17-2020, 07:45 AM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Originally posted by momaka View Post

*Raises hand proudly*

Yes, I still use CRTs.
Almost exclusively, actually.

My LCDs are only for testing or if I need to put up a temporary PC setup somewhere.

Here is an old picture I put on badcaps showing my setup some 5 years ago or so.
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...0&d=1499215509

I've changed/swapped out some of the CRTs on my desk for others, as did a few PCs. (Also de-cluttered in some areas, but made more clutter in others, especially lately after my last job, where I kept bringing in stuff from the dumpster/trash.) But it's still an accurate representation of my setup more or less.

do you game?

**momaka** · 06-17-2020, 10:10 AM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Originally posted by Uranium-235 View Post

do you game?

I do.

Mostly Fortnite nowadays, but occasionally CS Source / CS GO and Dirt Rally as well.
CSS and CSGO look great on these monitors: 1280x960 @ 85 Hz is probably about as smooth as 120/144 Hz on an LCD, since CRTs don't show tearing and have virtually zero image response time. As for Fortnite, I'm currently playing it on a i5-2500 with an HD6850 video card, because now that it's summer and getting hotter, I've mothballed my power-hungry hardware. Thus, I don't get really good framerates (and especially frametimes) in Fortnite. Actually, I'm running the game capped @ 60 Hz to get more stable FPS (and lower GPU/CPU power consumption). 3D resolution is set 66% scale on 1152x864... so that's a lot lower than 720p

, though still higher than 480p.

You might think such low resolutions look like crap... and on an LCD, indeed they do. But on those CRTs above, the game actually looks quite smooth and not pixely at all. If all I had was LCD monitors, I probably wouldn't play Fortnite at all - not at a low resolution like that. I tried it, though, and almost got a headache.

**eccerr0r** · 06-17-2020, 03:24 PM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

I still have a 19" shadowmask and a 20" trinitron. However no, I just use the LCDs, no warmup time and don't get as warm...

The 20" trinitron can do 2048x1536 @60 (and the 19" shadowmask can even do 1600x1200@60) so technically it has higher resolution than my LCDs, alas it's not enough of a benefit for me to prefer it over LCDs. I just run my LCDs at native 1280x1024.

**momaka** · 06-25-2020, 05:15 PM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post

The 20" trinitron can do 2048x1536 @60 (and the 19" shadowmask can even do 1600x1200@60) so technically it has higher resolution than my LCDs, alas it's not enough of a benefit for me to prefer it over LCDs.

*sigh* Here we go again, falling into discussion about resolutions, as if it's the late 2000's and "HD" video all over again.

The high resolution of CRTs (even compared to early LCDs) was never their stronghold. It's the deep black colors (in a dark room, of course) and higher refresh rate without input lag and pixel lag that made them better for video editing and gaming (i.e. any kind of moving image.) Some will even claim CRTs were better for photo editing, but I'm a bit split on that one, because all CRTs tend to have a bit of tinting after they age for a while (which may or may not be easily corrected), and this is most visible on a grayscale palletes.

When it comes to doing office work / viewing of static images, I too would take an LCD. They take less space, always visible in dark or light rooms, and run cooler / use less energy.

**i4004** · 07-26-2020, 10:26 AM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Originally posted by eccerr0r View Post

I still have a 19" shadowmask and a 20" trinitron. However no, I just use the LCDs, no warmup time and don't get as warm...

The 20" trinitron can do 2048x1536 @60 (and the 19" shadowmask can even do 1600x1200@60) so technically it has higher resolution than my LCDs, alas it's not enough of a benefit for me to prefer it over LCDs. I just run my LCDs at native 1280x1024.

crt doesn't even have the proper, discrete pixels, inspect it under magnifying glass. so text sharpness will always be lower than lcd.
but colors and hiding (for example) video/image compression artefacts....lcd will never be able to match it.

**Dan81** · 11-04-2020, 01:23 PM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

I still have a Phillips 107P4 that can do 1920x1200, though lately I've been hearing something rattling inside it, although it's never been opened.

I might check if it still works, as I'm probably going to be looking for a place of my own in the next few years, and would love to have a double PC table - one for my i5-3470 "BMW" machine (hey, I didn't tune it up for nothing! Just the GPU and PSU need replacing as they're pretty old - PSU is a 500W FSP Bluestorm II from frickin' 2007 (I think) and the GPU is a GTX650 non-Ti 1GB.) and the other for a Pentium 3 650MHz+ Voodoo3 machine.

**momaka** · 11-06-2020, 05:25 PM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Originally posted by Dan81 View Post

I still have a Phillips 107P4 that can do 1920x1200, though lately I've been hearing something rattling inside it, although it's never been opened.

Is that one related or similar to the 107S? If so, I'd be surprised if it still works. From what I've seen on the net, the 107S was very problematic. Not sure how the 107P4 compares, though.

Also, going by the model number... that 107P4 is a 17" CRT. (??) Whatever the case, even if it's a 21", 1920x1200 is 16:10 widescreen and will look like total shit... not to mention you won't be able to get a good refresh rate. (Heck, I'd be surprised to see the monitor even display anything at that resolution and not throw an "out-of-sync" error.)

That said, I still don't understand why people go for the highest resolution on a CRT.

You get much smoother and crisp picture on lower resolution (but not too low, obviously) and a high refresh rate. For a 17", 1280x960 is max you should ever push. I have not seen a cheap 17" look good on anything beyond that.

Originally posted by Dan81 View Post

... as I'm probably going to be looking for a place of my own in the next few years, and would love to have a double PC table

Nice!

Yeah, man! Get a large enough place... or at least a place with a big enough "computer room" to put all your cool rigs on one desk to show them off.

I actually did something kind of like that at my second place while in college. Instead of using the living room as a living room, I made myself a large desk from common building materials so that it could hold 3 CRTs and still have space in front of the monitors to use as a desk. It wasn't very pretty, but function-wise it rocked! I think I might have even posted a picture of it here somewhere a long time ago.

**Dan81** · 11-07-2020, 09:48 AM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Originally posted by momaka View Post

Is that one related or similar to the 107S? If so, I'd be surprised if it still works. From what I've seen on the net, the 107S was very problematic. Not sure how the 107P4 compares, though.

Also, going by the model number... that 107P4 is a 17" CRT. (??) Whatever the case, even if it's a 21", 1920x1200 is 16:10 widescreen and will look like total shit... not to mention you won't be able to get a good refresh rate. (Heck, I'd be surprised to see the monitor even display anything at that resolution and not throw an "out-of-sync" error.)

That said, I still don't understand why people go for the highest resolution on a CRT.

You get much smoother and crisp picture on lower resolution (but not too low, obviously) and a high refresh rate. For a 17", 1280x960 is max you should ever push. I have not seen a cheap 17" look good on anything beyond that.

Ironically that 1920x1200 is its native resolution, according to Windows (and I think Linux too, but not sure). The P models were usually good, and this seems to be no exception. I was looking at a Medion branded 19" CRT at one point but figured that thing might break the table lol. BTW I just looked up the 107S, and mine isn't curved, instead it's a Trinitron-styled flat tube. (called Diamondtron I think?)

As for viewable and crisp resolution, the easiest to view would be 1280x1024 last time I checked it and viewable (although not very crisp) is 1440x1050. Very few resolutions are out of range.

Same couldn't be said about the AOC 15" it lived along until I got it. My dad used that thing with a Phenom X4 for a few years until it finally gave the ghost. I also squeezed a few NFS Hot Pursuit 2013 sessions on it and surprisingly the slightly blurred image (which wouldn't go away no matter how much I'd fiddle with the sharpness settings or anything for that matter) actually made for a amazing gaming experience on that machine. IIRC the GPU was a HD6850 if my memory serves me right (a Sapphire I can tell for sure since I found and took home one of the case stickers

) and the PSU was a 500W Sirtec/Sirfa built High Power unit. Case was some semi- cheapo Intertech case, mobo was a ASRock 870 Extreme3 R2.0 w/ 4GB of DDR3, and the HDD was some Samsung 320GB HDD stupidly divided in 3 (yes, THREE) partitions.

EDIT: My bad, the native resolution isn't 1920x1200, it's actually 1920x1440.

**momaka** · 11-07-2020, 08:37 PM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Originally posted by Dan81 View Post

EDIT: My bad, the native resolution isn't 1920x1200, it's actually 1920x1440.

Lol.

Just because the tube can accept xx by yy as the highest resolution doesn't mean that this resolution will look the sharpest or should be considered as "native".

In fact, you do know that CRTs don't actually have a "native" resolution, right?

This is because CRT screens don't have discrete individual pixels, unlike LCDs. You get either dot triads (shadow mask) or vertical aperture grill lines (Trinitron & Diamontron) on the screen. The CRT tube electronics then try to "map" something that resembles a square pixel with three round (more-or-less) beams of electrons on a screen of phosphors. So nothing fits exactly 1:1 and it can never be. That's why CRTs can never look as sharp as LCDs or have a native resolution. Instead, at best, you may have an "optimal" resolution, where the size of the pixels of that resolution probably get very close in size to the dot pitch of the phosphors on the screen, and somehow that produces an image that looks very crisp. Any resolution higher than that can still be displayed, but the image will actually start looking "softer" (i.e. more blurry.) And anything under the optimal resolution, and you're not utilizing the dot-pitch to it's highest potential resolution, but these lower resolutions will then generally only look sharper. This is why CRTs don't have the scaling issues that LCDs do at lower resolutions. And it also allows you to get SCANLINES.

That aside, I have seen a good number of different 17" CRTs in various IT jobs/internships, and I have NEVER seen one that actually looked crisp at anything beyond 1280x960. I'm skeptical even 1440x1050 can look sharp, given that 17" screens were pretty much the "low-end" of CRTs in the late 90's and early 2000's, and thus rarely had the best dot/pixel-pitch.

Originally posted by Dan81 View Post

Ironically that 1920x1200 is its native resolution, according to Windows (and I think Linux too, but not sure).

Never leave Windows to pick your resolution and refresh rate on a CRT.

Especially if you're on Windows 7 and newer, since they were designed with LCD technology in mind and will try to push the highest resolution possible. For most "regular" 17"ers, that would be 1280x1024 - which is the incorrect ratio for square CRTs!!!

Originally posted by Dan81 View Post

As for viewable and crisp resolution, the easiest to view would be 1280x1024...

That's a 5:4 resolution. You'll get distorted image. All PC CRTs are 4:3... unless we're talking about the Sony GDM-FW900 and GDM-W900 here, both being -the only- 16:10 PC CRT monitors ever made.

Originally posted by Dan81 View Post

Same couldn't be said about the AOC 15" it lived along until I got it. My dad used that thing with a Phenom X4 for a few years until it finally gave the ghost. I also squeezed a few NFS Hot Pursuit 2013 sessions on it and surprisingly the slightly blurred image (which wouldn't go away no matter how much I'd fiddle with the sharpness settings or anything for that matter) actually made for a amazing gaming experience on that machine.

Indeed it probably did.

Though if you're trying to make a CRT look sharper and you've already fiddled with everything you can in the menu to no avail, then the next step is to play with the Focus knob on the flyback... though that may or may not get you better results either, depending on what's making the CRT not have optimal focus.

That said, the "soft" sharpness of CRT monitors does make them look better in games - no need for Anti-Aliasing either (or very minimal at most.) Phosphor glow "trails" also give the picture a natural motion blur, similar to what your eyes see anyways. And that also takes care of screen tearing, so you don't need V-sync on.

On that last one, try putting a CRT and an LCD next to each other, and then have them display from the same PC. Now play a video on YT and see if you see any difference.

Originally posted by Dan81 View Post

and the PSU was a 500W Sirtec/Sirfa built High Power unit.

And it survived powering an Athlon X4 and HD6850??

That's surprising. Maybe they fixed the design on that one. All older Sirtec units I've dealt with tend to oscillate a bit (or a bit more than a bit

) with a heavy 12V load.

Originally posted by Dan81 View Post

and the HDD was some Samsung 320GB HDD stupidly divided in 3 (yes, THREE) partitions.

That's nothing. I have a 2.5" 320 GB Toshiba HDD divided into 5 (FIVE) partitions!

Reason: two of the partitions contain all bad sectors. So to isolate them, I had to partition the HDD like that. But hey, it works!

**Dan81** · 11-08-2020, 06:37 AM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

Originally posted by momaka View Post

And it survived powering an Athlon X4 and HD6850??

That's surprising. Maybe they fixed the design on that one. All older Sirtec units I've dealt with tend to oscillate a bit (or a bit more than a bit

) with a heavy 12V load.

I think it was a HPC-500-A12S? I remember I had to bench-test a P4 machine once while I was at his place and I definitely remember seeing a thee-digit display on the back of the PSU. The load wasn't that really heavy either - about 3 case fans (2x 140mm on the sidepanel, low RPM, and a 92mm on the back), the HD6850 and of course the CPU. (small correction in my original post as I now remembered - it wasn't a Athlon X4 - it was a Phenom X4 960T.)

Originally posted by momaka View Post

That's nothing. I have a 2.5" 320 GB Toshiba HDD divided into 5 (FIVE) partitions!

Reason: two of the partitions contain all bad sectors. So to isolate them, I had to partition the HDD like that. But hey, it works!

I'd understand that partitioning to isolate bad sectors. But the issue here was the HDD was in good shape (HD Sentinel reported 99% health) and also all three partitions were actually nearly filled up.

**lookimback** · 04-23-2021, 10:28 PM

Re: How To Stop CRT Flicker

My preferred method of stopping the flicker by throwing it out the closest window. Works every time, guaranteed.

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