Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

[drussell]

Well, this one has me a bit lost... I'm usually pretty good at figuring out what the heck is going on but I'd appreciate any input from the gurus on this one!

A little background... Had two of these PN60E530A3F (built in Jan 2013 and Nov 2012) showing the same symptoms initially; wouldn't always turn on in the morning first try, took several attempts with the power button before they would actually turn on. These are from a restaurant/bar so they see high hours (the 13 is about 10k hours the 12 about 8.5k currently, IIRC) but worked fine once started up for the day. Obviously, though, I could tell something was amiss and am probably chasing multiple issues so please bear with me...

What a cheap set. Not just cost-reduced... CHEAP Samsung crap... ARGH!!

The first one to go, (the 13) died completely; wouldn't turn on at all, so I pulled the back on-site to check for obvious PSU problems, etc. and all voltages looked fine for the split second at power up so brought back with me for further testing. I found a shorted FGPF4536 IGBT on the Yps / Yr ramp heatsink so replaced it and it's parallelled twin for good measure. This brought the set back to life but the sluggish start-up remained. Difficult to troubleshoot since it won't usually do it until turned off for some time. Updated the firmware, no change. Tried substituting pretty much every electrolytic in the thing, no change. They needed it back for football so I returned it and put it back up since it was at least working again. When I took it back, I DID, however, pull down another working one and swap boards between the two. (I was suspecting the main/hdmi input board over-twitchily sensing a problem where none existed, but it wasn't that.) The problem followed the Y-main from one set to the other. That one is still operational after 6 weeks.

The second one to go wouldn't turn on either so I pulled the back off it, checked all the IGBTs and all were fine. I started substituting important capacitors and when I replaced the 4 x 150uF 250v caps stiffening the Vs supply on the Y-Main with 5 x 150uF better new Nichicon caps (since there was a spot for a 5th cap anyway and these things do massive current spikes) and it powered up. Put it back up and it worked fine for a few days then got dimmer than usual (like an X-Main problem) then quit completely again after another week and a half or so and wouldn't turn on.

I pulled it down and pulled the back again, found the Ve not coming up (no surprise there since it had gone dim) causing it to go into protection. I replaced the 5 x 150uF 250v caps on the X-Main (four are on the Vs, one is the Ve) and moved the 5th cap on the Y-Main to replace the last crappy looking/feeling 150UF 250v SAMWHA that is up on the Vscan in the upper left corner of the Y-Main since I only had 10 of those Nichicons on hand. That didn't seem to make any real difference but with enough prodding of the power button and unplugging/plugging in I did get the Ve to finally spring fully to life and the set came on. (Proves there were no shorted IGBTs, that everything COULD still work, etc.) Basically, if I can get the Ve to come up, the set powers up but it's really tricky to get it to come on.

I updated the firmware while I had it on, put it in service mode and the individual R/G/B color screens look blazingly nice and bright but the white seems dim to me (looks more like 50% gray to me, don't think that's normal ??), although the Vs stays rock solid at 211 even on the white so it at least doesn't look like the Vs dropping out. It powered up fine several times in a row, worked fine for about half an hour when I left it on to warm up and check the voltages but when I shut it off again for a few minutes, I once again couldn't get it to turn back on.

Very annoying. I know it CAN work so there must not be any shorts, etc, but what on earth could be causing it to be this flakey coming up? Basically, when I can get the Ve to come up, it powers up but it usually only goes to a few volts at startup before it goes into protection. With enough unplug/plug-in and power cycles it gets to about 13v and doesn't drop very fast when powered down but I'm really confused as to why the Ve won't come right up full most of the time.

Anyone seen this before? Any bright ideas?

Thanks in advance, guys!!

TV back, PSU, X-Main, back of X-Main, Y-main:

[jjanssen7]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

Thanks for posting this! I Think there are a few of us working with these E-series 60" Samsung units. There is another unresolved thread on a similar/same model where it was discovered that if you left the white ribbon disconnected from the y-main you would have no picture (of course) but the control board would flash a happy one-second flash and you could test voltages that way.

I have a PN60E550 that I believe has the same y & x-boards as yours. The VE has gone missing on my X-main. (Tested while the white ribbon cable to the y-main from the control board is unplugged). All FETS on both the y and x-main have been checked for shorts or other unusual readings and pass the test.

Can I ask you if you have VE when you test as above,(with the white ribbon on the Y-main disconnected? VS & VA are fine on mine, but VE is 2.1V.

Maybe we can figure this one out, as it seems to be a common problem!

[drussell]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

There is another unresolved thread on a similar/same model where it was discovered that if you left the white ribbon disconnected from the y-main you would have no picture (of course) but the control board would flash a happy one-second flash and you could test voltages that way.

Yes, I have read everything I could find on these models including https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?p=512215 to which I believe you are referring. This model looks very similar to the E550 as shown in the "Fast Track Guide" at except the main board is different. I assume the 550 was the 2012 model and the 530 is the low-end 2013.

I have a PN60E550 that I believe has the same y & x-boards as yours. The VE has gone missing on my X-main. (Tested while the white ribbon cable to the y-main from the control board is unplugged). All FETS on both the y and x-main have been checked for shorts or other unusual readings and pass the test.

Can I ask you if you have VE when you test as above,(with the white ribbon on the Y-main disconnected? VS & VA are fine on mine, but VE is 2.1V.

Yeah, I had tried both manually jumpering the PSU (still shuts the HV supplies off) and disconnecting the various flat cables and, yes, I can make it do the fast blink and Vs/Va stay on but Ve still doesn't come up.

This got me to thinking a bit more about it, though, and I believe what is happening is the voltage I'm seeing most of the time at Ve is coming back out through the panel TO the Ve and charging the capacitor; makes total sense. I see no difference in the Ve when I adjust the Ve adjustment potentiometer, for example, so I think the Ve supply is simply not coming up most of the time.

To make this easier to watch I pulled out my old DSO and put it in Transient Recorder mode. Attached is the record of what the Ve does when I apply power with a 1s / div timescale and a x10 probe so 10v / div. With the Y-Main flat cable connected I only ever get to the first step on the graph then it goes into protecton, then the voltage slowly rises to about 10-11 volts as the supplies bleed off (I'm assuming this is being capacitively coupled through the panel, charging the Ve cap slightly.) With the cable disconnected so the supplies stay on, the voltage rises slowly to almost 20v but the exact voltage is probably panel dependent.

I'm thinking the blips on the graph once it starts to charge up may be the Ve supply trying to start, not sure... I will have to figure out the circuit and see where to probe transistor gates, etc. to see if I'm getting any drive, etc.

I'm going to take the X-Main out again now and ponder / trace out the circuit a bit to wrap my head around how it's supposed to be working but I'm pretty sure we're on to something here. My Ve supply can't be totally dead since I can occasionally make it come on but something is very intermittent...

Probably something stupidly simple...

Transient Recorder record of Ve with Y-Main flat cable disconnected:

[MagicSmoke]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

Yep that's my thread, I have been playing with mine again after leaving it set for a while.

I still cant get VE to go above 20.7 volts on mine. Even tried another X main and same reading 20.7v. Adjusting the trim changes nothing.

When Y main connected it goes into protection because VE volts to Y aren't right.

It has to be something in the logic circuit limiting the VE from coming all the way up.

[drussell]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

I still cant get VE to go above 20.7 volts on mine. Even tried another X main and same reading 20.7v. Adjusting the trim changes nothing.

Hmmm, very interesting that another X-Main does not solve the problem!

I tried it with the Y-Main disconnected from the X-Main to be sure the Y-Main wasn't pulling it down somehow.
(I did this partially because I know the flakeyness in the other set followed the Y-Main board but this may well be a completely different problem.)

Now I really need to think this through! Argh! I'm probably not looking in the right place after all.
This new knowledge just raises further questions!

FWIW, this is what the Ve looks like with the Y-Main connected:
(I had mistakenly thought it decayed from the 10v when it goes into protection but it doesn't; it stays at 10v until the power is pulled then decays)

[drussell]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

Does anyone have a WORKING E530 or E550 around that could check to see if the Ve actually comes up full with the Y-Main flat cable disconnected?

I'm still thinking about whether the Y-Main is involved in this fault somehow since I get 10v right off the bat with the flat cable connected and only 6v on the first plateau with it disconnected.

Also, MagicSmoke, did yours exhibit any hesitation to turn on prior to the Ve dropping out completely?

Hmmmm.....

[MagicSmoke]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

I got the one I'm working on off craigslist. Lightning strike in backyard was story I was given.

It would not turn on at first, so main got replaced as it did not have 3.3v going to button module. Turns on and off now w/remote and button, plays start jingle every now and then.

Then no led flashing on logic, fuses tested good figured lightning wiped the eeprom or fried cpu? No visible damage. Replaced that and that's where I am now. Low VE causing problems.

I did just try a test with main board LVDS disconnected from logic, X still connected Y disconnected. Powered on logic blinks normal, PSU stays on, BUT VE went down 2.5 volts from 20.7v to 18.1v.

So I'm not sure the logic board I got has the proper firmware/software to run the 3d panel, or it has some sort of problem.


Edit I also tried a test where I unplugged Y main power and VE volts also went down.

I have swapped every board but the E & F buffers at the bottom with the same end result. Low VE volts.

[drussell]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

Here is what I get with the logic board disconnected from the main...
Sounds substantially similar to what you're seeing.

I don't believe there is probably any difference between the panels in a 2D and 3D set rather mostly just a different signal but I'm not sure.

The first one is with the Y-Main still connected to the logic board, then with it disconnected:

[nomoresonys]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

I got the one I'm working on off craigslist. Lightning strike in backyard was story I was given.

It would not turn on at first, so main got replaced as it did not have 3.3v going to button module. Turns on and off now w/remote and button, plays start jingle every now and then.

Then no led flashing on logic, fuses tested good figured lightning wiped the eeprom or fried cpu? No visible damage. Replaced that and that's where I am now. Low VE causing problems.

I did just try a test with main board LVDS disconnected from logic, X still connected Y disconnected. Powered on logic blinks normal, PSU stays on, BUT VE went down 2.5 volts from 20.7v to 18.1v.

So I'm not sure the logic board I got has the proper firmware/software to run the 3d panel, or it has some sort of problem.


Edit I also tried a test where I unplugged Y main power and VE volts also went down.

I have swapped every board but the E & F buffers at the bottom with the same end result. Low VE volts.

did you try a firmware update?

[MagicSmoke]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

did you try a firmware update?

Yes tried, but not sure about it working. Cant find a way to do the update without having the menu visible. Tried from a factory reset power on but that did not seem to work.

[nomoresonys]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

maybe try this. http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/co...201206/2012060

[MagicSmoke]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

maybe try this. http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/co...201206/2012060

That link does not work page requested unavailable.

[drussell]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

I would just like to reiterate that updating the firmware on the 530s had NO EFFECT, I don't believe it has anything to do with firmware although haven't ruled out a logic problem somehow disabling the Ve.

The circuitry connected to the Ve is very convoluted and I haven't deciphered exactly what all is connected to it and why. It's on my agenda for today to delve into this set a little more deeply but they're also upgrading the electrical service here today so I will be playing move-the-servers between electrical services with the UPSes, etc. so may not get to it until later today, especially if I only have minimal power here for a good chunk of the day! Still running backups right now....

I'll post back with what I find as I get to it, though!

[jjanssen7]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

Thanks, I know I'll be watching. I'm stumped with my PN60E550 as well. Same no/low VE problem.

[drussell]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

I'll be working on this issue today.

I pulled down up the other flakey TV that has the Y-Main that I replaced the IGBTs on (the one that still takes several power up attempts to get to turn on, but at least does turn on) and brought it back with me to use as a working reference while I'm trying to figure out what the heck is going on with this Ve.

So far, I can say that it doesn't look like the multi-attempts-to-turn-on problem (which both sets always exhibited) has anything to do with the Ve as the Ve comes up on the first power-up attempt on the reference set even though it won't turn on so the one with no Ve probably does have at least 2 problems.

Nice work, Samsung....

I've got the reference one powered up and I'm letting it warm up now for a bit to double check that the voltages are all correct and stay stable before I start probing things or swapping boards, etc.

Stay tuned.

[jjanssen7]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

One of our questions was if the VE comes up (on a good working unit) with the white ribbon on the Y-main disconnected. If we know it does not, then the problem (or one of them) may be back on the Y-side not the X-side.

[drussell]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

One of our questions was if the VE comes up (on a good working unit) with the white ribbon on the Y-main disconnected. If we know it does not, then the problem (or one of them) may be back on the Y-side not the X-side.

No, it does not.

It hovers around the 20v mark with the flat ribbon cable to the logic board disconnected from the Y-Main

[jjanssen7]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

I'll need to double-check, but I think that's what minr did too. I'm not sure it even got that high, maybe even hovering around 3-5 volts if I remember correctly.

I have since packed up the TV for our cross-country move, but hope to take a look at it again at the other end.

[MagicSmoke]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

OK so no VE with Y main unhooked. I changed the Y main in my set with no difference, VE still 20ish volts. Also checked buffers for shorts and found none.

Changed Y buffers to another set that tested no shorts to see, same thing low VE.

The only boards I have not swapped but did test for shorts, were the E & F buffers at the bottom of screen.

It's either those are the problem or the screen is bad and I cant see the crack?

Have you swapped main boards to see if that's the problem? I have not found another one in my price range to see if the replacement I got is faulty.

[jjanssen7]

Re: Stumped on Samsung PN60E530A3F

I think your question is for drussell...

but for the sake of discussion, I did replace the main board from a 55" model and no luck. It behaved exactly the same as the original main board. fault code if everything is hooked up, normal flash when white cable to y-sus is unhooked.

What about the control board? Has anybody swapped that one out with one known to be good? I have not yet had a really good look at mine.