Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

[Globulus]

My 2008 Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on.

Blinks red three times. Pause. Blinks red three times. Pause. Etc.

According to the service manual, the description for this error is "12V" and the fault is in the power supply board.

I took this board out of the tv. Everything (everything!) is clean. No leaks or bulging caps. No cracked solder joints. Fuse is fine.

Having nothing to measure this with, I bought the MESR-100 v2 + M6013 combo on eBay and started out using the MESR-100 to do in in-circuit test of the caps. I have not used the M6013 yet as I do not want to take anything out of the board unless I absolutely have to.

Here are the ESR results:

(Part number on PCB: Cap label: MESR-100 result)

2041: 1000uF 25V Rubycon 105C: 0,021 Ohm
2042: 1000uF 25V Rubycon 105C: 0,021 Ohm
2119: 2200uF 35V Rubycon 105C: 0,010 Ohm
2120: 2200uF 35V Rubycon 105C: 0,022 Ohm
2111: 330uF 200V Lelon REA 85C: 0,127 Ohm ?
2105: 47uF 50V Lelon REA 85C: 0,866 Ohm *
2169: 100uF 50V Lelon REA 85C: 0,354 Ohm *
2126: 3300uF 16V Lelon REA 85C: 0,022 Ohm
2127: 3300uF 16V Lelon REA 85C: 0,033 Ohm
2170: 470uF 6,3V Lelon RGA 105C: 0,300 Ohm *
2151: 100uF 25V Lelon RGA 105C: 0,515 Ohm *

? = Probably within spec
* = Probably bad

That last one on the list, by the way, is sitting right between two large heatsinks with maybe a millimeter on each side to spare.

I only have the rough guide on the sticker of my cheap MESR-100 to go by. Where can I find the more exact (100kOhm) numbers from the manufacturer? I looked at the REA and RGA pdfs at the Lelon site as well as on http://www.paullinebarger.net/DS/Lelon/ (probably the same documents), but I cannot find any useful numbers in those documents.

What next step would you recommend? Should I just replace the Lelons marked with an *in the list above or all of the Lelons now that the board is out anyway?

Also: I thought it was usually the high-capacitance caps that were prone fail, but it looks as if those are all fine, including the 3300uF Lelons, whereas the low-capacitance Lelons are the ones that appear to be going bad - if I am reading this right. Perhaps they are just in the process of drying out?

Again: No leakage or bulging. The tv just stopped turning on from one day to the next. Though it did seem to take longer to turn on and had problems changing DVB-T channels the last couple of weeks before it reached that point.

Is it normal to have a mix of capacitor brands on the same board? If the engineers thought highly of Rubycon, I can't think of any other reason for populating 2/3 of the board with Lelons other than cost-cutting, but this is a top-of-the-range set we are talking about. How much could they have saved on this? $2?

Finally: The only soldering iron I've got at the moment is a cheap (fixed-temp) 30W one. Is this too hot for this kind of work? I probably won't be using a soldering iron again for several years so I do not want to spend money on a variable temp soldering station. Should I buy a 15W Weller instead?

BTW: Before I started looking at this, I had actually bought a 2013 model Philips (6000-series) to replace it, but because of its glossy panel, its atrocius/buggy SmartTV functionality, its sluggish/buggy control system, etc, I returned it two days later. Sad to say, but I want my 5-year old, great-sounding, ambient-light-sucking tv back in working order more than I want anything currently on the market.

[capkid]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

Please post pics of the back of the TV with the cover off. The ESR seems marginally high on a couple caps, but I'm not sure it's high enough to cause a failure with three blinks.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

Please post pics of the back of the TV with the cover off. The ESR seems marginally high on a couple caps, but I'm not sure it's high enough to cause a failure with three blinks.

Here are some pictures of the power supply board (removed from the tv) as well as some pictures of the signal processing board (still on the tv).

The first image is a full view of the power supply board.

Let me know if you need (more) closeups of anything.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

By the way: My power supply looks exactly the same as the one seen in an attachment to last year's thread on Philips 42PFL7403D (same tv size, brand, and year, but lower series):
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21879

I read through the thread but did not come to any definite conclusions as to what to do with my own. They seem to be discussing a different problem.

I would - as a start - just replace all the Taiwanese caps on my board, but the nearest electronics store is 50 miles away and charges something like $10 for shipping anything unless you buy for at least a certain amount, so I want to make sure I get my order right if and when I need to order something.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

By the way: My power supply looks exactly the same as the one seen in an attachment to last year's thread on Philips 42PFL7403D (same tv size, brand, and year, but lower series):
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21879

I read through the thread but did not come to any definite conclusions as to what to do with my own. They seem to be discussing a different problem.

I would - as a start - just replace all the Taiwanese caps on my board, but the nearest electronics store is 50 miles away and charges something like $10 for shipping anything unless you buy for at least a certain amount, so I want to make sure I get my order right if and when I need to order something.

Another thread discussing the same power supply:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27208
This time 42PFL9703D. One comment included a service manual for the same chassis but with a picture that actually matched my power supply board at the beginning. Another comment included a reference to a document with suggested rework areas.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

Replaced all the Lelon caps with Panasonics. Some of the high-capacity ones were measuring 10-15% below (e.g. 2950 instead of 3300), but nothing catastrophic.

Unfortunately, I am still not getting any 12V power. Only the three blinks.

[Caleb]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

Have you checked the output diodes for shorts? From the pics none of the outputs are labeled, can you show which pins are the 12v and a pic of the back of the power board as well could be helpful.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

Have you checked the output diodes for shorts? From the pics none of the outputs are labeled, can you show which pins are the 12v and a pic of the back of the power board as well could be helpful.

I don't have the board out at the moment, but here are some crops of the front and the back of the board as well as part of the block diagram from the service manual.

12V is provided on pins 6 to 8 on the 1M95 connector.

Can you tell from those images if there are any components I should pay special interest?









I will remove the board and take some pictures of the back sometime but won't have time to do it today.

Please let me know if there is anything I can test before I remove the board again (i.e. whilst all the leads are still plugged in).

I have tested the main fuse on the front and the two SMD fuses on the back and they are all OK.

I have also tested at least some of the diodes but probably not all of them.

The bridge rectifier should be fine (but then again, if it was not, then I suppose I would not get the 3.3V standby power).

[Caleb]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

Are you getting 24v? it looks like 12 and 24v are both derived from the same source. 3v3 is off another transformer. If no 24v either check resistor 3147 supposed to be 150K supplies vcc to pin 8 of driver ic, there should be at least a couple volts (3v3?) present to pin 8. If that is ok I would check the fet 7102 (carefully!! 160v present when energized)

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

Are you getting 24v? it looks like 12 and 24v are both derived from the same source. 3v3 is off another transformer. If no 24v either check resistor 3147 supposed to be 150K supplies vcc to pin 8 of driver ic, there should be at least a couple volts (3v3?) present to pin 8. If that is ok I would check the fet 7102 (carefully!! 160v present when energized)

If I probe the 9045 (ground) and 9048 (12V) jumpers with the power on, I am getting 12V (12.13V) if - and only if - the 1M95 cable is *not* attached. In this case the big transformer will give out an audible buzz all the time.

If I *do* attach the 1M95 cable, the big transformer will give out the same audible buzz but only for about a second, after which it turns into an almost inaudible buzz. At no time - not even during that first second - am I getting 12V on the 9048 jumper when the 1M95 cable is plugged in.

As for 1M90 (the 24V Ambilight connector), I am getting 24.something V if the 1M95 cable is unplugged. With the 1M95 cable plugged in, I am getting 2.4V.

Maybe I am not testing this right.

As for the 3147 resistor, it is located on the back and my problem with this is that I do not right now have a bunch of cables/wires that would allow me to test the board whilst removed from the back.

[Caleb]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

OK so it sounds as if there is a short present on the other end of that jumper, if you are getting some voltages its a good bet the resistor is fine. Can you measure in ohms the resistance between the 12v pin and ground? this would be on the 1m95 cable (pins 6,7 and 8 are all 12v) with it detached from the power supply.

Do you happen to have a standard brake light bulb for a car laying about? if so you can give the power supply a dummy load by connecting the bulb between 12v and ground
+12v------Bulb------ground
If it lights and stays lit chances are the power supply is ok, depending on your supply you may need to have a load on the 24v rail as well in which case you can do the same thing just add in another bulb
+24v-----bulb----bulb----ground

another thing to try out is freezing the components around that transformer and see if the buzz goes away you can do this with a can of compressed air held upside down.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

With the 1M95 cable detached from the PSU and SSB (i.e. both ends):

1M95 PSU side: 1.62 *K*Ohm between ground and 12V (6/7/8).

1M95 SSB side: 42 Ohm between ground and 12V (6/7/8).

Measurements taken with a $20 multimeter with a 200 Ohm - 20 M Ohm range. Not exactly a precision instrument but it will have to do.

I think I do have a 12V bulb somewhere but I do not think I have any cables for hooking it up. I really should get onto eBay and order a set of test leads + alligator clips.

[Caleb]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

42 ohm is really low, you need to start looking at the ssb. If it was me I would hook up a 12v 500 milliamp power supply (wall wart) tied to 12v and ground and freeze spray the board, then see what melts the fastest. Generally it will be your short. However most of that board is fine pitch stuff, if you can prove the fault into the ssb you might be better off getting a replacement. I would bet its probably one of those tiny fets 7u05, 7u08, possibly driver chip 7uoa, or maybe 7u02 or 7u06. I suppose it could also be a short on 2u14 or 2u0y capacitors but pretty unlikely -schematic is on page 96 of the manual.

To test the power supply I usually just solder the bulb in wherever its convenient, but you can unclip the wires from the ssb side of the connector and hook to them with alligator clamps.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

42 ohm is really low, you need to start looking at the ssb. If it was me I would hook up a 12v 500 milliamp power supply (wall wart) tied to 12v and ground and freeze spray the board, then see what melts the fastest. Generally it will be your short. However most of that board is fine pitch stuff, if you can prove the fault into the ssb you might be better off getting a replacement. I would bet its probably one of those tiny fets 7u05, 7u08, possibly driver chip 7uoa, or maybe 7u02 or 7u06. I suppose it could also be a short on 2u14 or 2u0y capacitors but pretty unlikely -schematic is on page 96 of the manual.

To test the power supply I usually just solder the bulb in wherever its convenient, but you can unclip the wires from the ssb side of the connector and hook to them with alligator clamps.

I have a 12v 500mA wall wart but would have to get some test leads and freeze spray for this.

You are right in saying that I will be better off replacing the SSB board, as it would be very difficult for me to replace anything on it without tearing it up.

As for replacing the SSB board, that is probably not going to happen. No such board for sale on eBay or the usual LCD scrap yards at the moment. The flea market at the www.repdata.de forum is littered with post from people looking for this board - not selling it. As one person wrote (in German): "Very difficult to find as nearly all of them have problems with the BGA chip".

It is possible that the tv has been having problems for a long time before it gave up. When it worked, it used to freeze the sound and/or picture whenever I used a switch (e.g. lights or just opening/closing my fridge) in my home. Any switch. It would also have great difficulty switching channels, i.e. it would appear to switch, then go black as it tried again, and eventually it would bring up the channel, after which there were no problems (other than being susceptible to interference from the rest of the house).

I just presumed that it was because my poor reception (DVB-T, aerial antenna in the attic), but when I briefly had another tv (2013 model) in my home, there were no problems at all.

I know that not all tv tuners are born equal, but in this case the problem got noticably worse the last few weeks before it died.

Anyway: I am starting to give up on this. It is probably better if I just buy a new tv and give the old one away to someone who can be bothered to fix it or go through the hassle of selling the working parts. Or buy an identical set used and use the old one as spare parts, if necessary. The problem is that there are hardly any of these sets around.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

Anyway: I am starting to give up on this. It is probably better if I just buy a new tv and give the old one away to someone who can be bothered to fix it or go through the hassle of selling the working parts. Or buy an identical set used and use the old one as spare parts, if necessary. The problem is that there are hardly any of these sets around.

Actually, my parents have the exact same set. To be honest, the easiest thing would have been to start swapping out boards from the beginning, but I already know that as far as they are concerned, a tv is a black box which should not be opened by anyone but an authorized repairman, so I did not even ask them if I could use their perfectly working set for my experiments.

So come to think of it, maybe I should just keep my set and use it as spare parts for their set in case theirs exhibit a non-SSB problem some day.

[Caleb]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

If you get some chipquick you can remove the small components pretty easily. I would try out the freeze spray. I bet those little fets are less than 3 bucks each, and most of the pins are connected together so soldering doesn't have to be super accurate.

[budm]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

You can try isolating the shorted circuit by lifting one end of these inductors (5u02, 06, 08, 09) one at a time to see if 42 Ohms resistance will go up.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

OK, I might try that, but I will probably have to put it on hold for a few days or a week. Other priorities right now (though 3+ weeks without a tv is starting to take its toll).

I appreciate all of your suggestions.

[Globulus]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

If you get some chipquick you can remove the small components pretty easily. I would try out the freeze spray. I bet those little fets are less than 3 bucks each, and most of the pins are connected together so soldering doesn't have to be super accurate.

Another 101 question: What is the difference between "freeze spray" sold by electronics stores and "cold spray" sold by sporting goods stores?

Can I just use the latter? The reason I am asking is that I do not have an electronics store nearby so I cannot simply pop by one of those in order to buy a single, cheap item, i.e. I either have to bundle my purchases in order to get free shipping or pay far too much (relatively speaking) for shipping when buying individual items.

So "cold spray" (for treating injuries) is much more accessible to me, but would it work? I did notice that those selling "freeze spray" for electronics point out that it is not flammable whereas the "cold spray" for treating injuries is highly flammable, but maybe they are just talking about whatever comes out of the cans vs. throwing the can on the fire, i.e. different things.

I have also read that a duster turned upside down can be used, though some warn that it might leave gunk on your PCB. I am a little curious as to whether a 400 ml duster used in that manner has a shorter life than a 400 ml ("proper") freeze/cold spray?!?

[tom66]

Re: Philips 42PFL9603D won't turn on. Need specs for Lelon capacitors.

I'd imagine unlike freeze spray, cold spray may or may not be conductive.
I have had good luck using cans of compressed air. Inverting the can makes the refrigerant come out which acts as a good freeze spray analogue.